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Thread: Concerning Legends in E4 and Champion Battles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monbrey View Post
    The problem is people who did $1m of work for a Pokemon that is no longer usable.
    Three of the five current E4 members (champ included) have two legends so far. One being T1 and the other in T2, each. Weir is on his way of getting a T2 legend (zeraora).

    This is only a consideration really for the challenger for them to decide how they can go at it.




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    Quote Originally Posted by juliorain View Post
    Three of the five current E4 members (champ included) have two legends so far. One being T1 and the other in T2, each. Weir is on his way of getting a T2 legend (zeraora).

    This is only a consideration really for the challenger for them to decide how they can go at it.
    I'm not sure where we're drawing the line, but I'm pretty sure I'd put Mew in T1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Nine View Post
    I'm not sure where we're drawing the line, but I'm pretty sure I'd put Mew in T1.
    That is a detail for now. I think if we choose to go this route there will bound to be disagreements aplenty. We should set up a chatroom/group on discord and chat it out the specific tiering if we are serious about implementing a tiering system.




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    Draconic Lorekeeper URPG Staff Dash's Avatar
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    One post at a time. As a note, if I cut out part of your post, I'm not trying to eliminate the argument, I'm just cutting out what I'm not responding to.

    @ DeKrueger's original proposition, I'm obviously fine with it and I'd be down for it. Of course, I know there's issues with it as seen in this thread, and I'll get to it, but I personally like it. However, there is the issue that I know people could have a legend and just deny legend vs. legend if they believe there's to be outclassed. I would like to see a way for Elite Four to not require the challenger to have a legendary just to compete on a fair ground, but I'll talk more about it later on in the post.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirlind120 View Post
    My main problem with this is the same problem I have with just outright banning Legends in E4 and Champion battles. This change is effectively the same; it discourages the use of a legend in one of the last places it’s actually useful in. FFAs, casual battles, and creative sections are well and good, but not only are most (and only most because Magearna exists) Legends hated out very rapidly in FFAs, but there is also definitely a culture of shunning people from using them in casual battles.

    i don’t think this will be an isolated issue either. Like it or not, a LOT of section activity has been incentivized by the Legend system. Whether that’s healthy or not I really can’t say, but I like to think any addition of a goal for helping people play the game is a positive (in the same way that WaR and SWC/WWC encourage longer writing pieces, and Event Park Runs incentivize activity). However, this game also LOVES battles. Everything you do will inevitably be towards a battling end (buying pokemon, writing for mons, drawing for cash, going into the park all move towards an end of obtaining pokemon, buying moves and items for battles). This doesn’t just disincentivize putting work into a section for an E4 legend; this disincentivizes getting a Legend in the first place. If I can just say “No, you put a lot of work into getting a Legend but you’re not allowed to use it in one of the last places it can actually be fun to use”, then the first thought I’d have as a defender or even as a potential challenger is, “why bother?”

    In the end, I think this change will not only impact E4/Champion battle negatively, but also impact section growth at a time where we all know the sections are just getting back on their feet. I can understand wanting Legends as a trophy (I did it for Arceus, believe me, I get it), but in the end this game’s endpoint is battling and having EM’d mons; discouraging even owning a Legend because you’ll never have to fight them is shortsighted.

    (P.S. another thing to consider with this is people already owning a Legend but not wanting to/having a bad matchup against a Defender’s Legend, and just making it easier for themselves to ban Legends altogether. This is, again, just discouraging getting Legends)
    Overall, I can agree with the idea behind this. The tendency for Legends to be cut out from other battles is an apparent issue, but its hard to look around it. In FFAs, Legendaries have a higher tendency to win if they aren't piled due to their stat layouts and move selection, and will tend to just overpower most of the people. This doesn't prevent them from winning sometimes (obviously), but its not unreasonable. In casual battles, its the same thing as Gyms or Elite Four; people who do not own a legendary aren't going to want to play at a significant disadvantage most of the time, and there are some people that are fine with it but its how it just works. There are non-creative sections you missed that I'm surprised (namely contests), but I can see the concern for not having anywhere else that's battle-related to use them. I'm trying to use Dungeons to allow for that possibility, but I can understand the sentiment.

    However, what I cannot agree with is that it will entirely remove incentives from obtaining legends nor will it hurt section growth. If you're only looking to battle with them, then yes, I can see where you're coming from. However, some people will want to use their legendaries exclusively in parks, contests, or possibly Onmyo if they manage to achieve that. I also don't think it should kill section growth. Legendaries were originally introduced as trophies for people who put their time and dedication into an activity, and were only intended for that. Ultimately in the end, you should be looking to be active in a section for the section to grow, not to gain a legendary. The legendary is meant to be the equivalent of a huge "Thank you!" for what you've put in the game, not a milestone so that you can compete in the upper echelons of URPG battling, and be pushed out if you don't.

    And at the last part, said it above but yeah I can see that possibly being an issue.

    This kind of covers @Juliorain's post and @Evanfardreamer's post, so won't go into those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fierce Deity View Post
    Throwing this in the discussion as well.

    If Legend Clause is OFF: Permanently allow the use of Z-Moves/Megas for Defender AND Challenger on ALL Non-Legend mons (legends cannot use these boosts).
    If Legend Clause is ON: Defender can turn the Z-Moves/Mega Clause ON to prevent use from both sides or keep them on.

    Please note this also includes ULTRA BURST AND PRIMALS.


    tl;dr
    If Legend Clause is OFF, Z-Moves/Megas is a default OFF (can be decided by challenger).
    If Legend Clause is ON, Z-Moves/Megas can be ON or OFF (can be decided by defender).
    This just feels kind of odd and in the end doesn't seem to do much to me. Ultimately, it only nerfs very certain legends, some will still reign supreme like Arceus and only leads to confusion. Also, I don't know if you intended to put "(can be decided by challenger)" for legends clause off, as that would mean that won't be permanently on unless the challenger decides they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirlind120 View Post
    A big problem with this way of thinking is, in my opinion, E4 should be a hurdle to overcome, a megalith as you word it. You're earning a Legend, which in theory we could make just another participation trophy like we do with the rest of the legends if we keep limiting where they can be used, but additionally you get any mon in the game. Any mon, for free, instantly, and nerfing how hard it is to get to that stage is again, shortsighted. E4 shouldn't be something everyone does, it should be something people work their way towards, in their sections and activity, to challenge when they are prepared.

    Thats also the problem with a trial run of this. If E4 is made easier, even for a week, and someone takes advantage of it and beats the E4/Champ when its fundamentally weaker than it should be (feel free to disagree on that), then we have a new champion who took advantage of a trial system and there's not much we can do about that.
    Yes, E4 should be a hurdle to overcome, and yes, Champion should be hard to get. But ultimately, the difficulty of this shouldn't be determined by what Pokemon you don't own and the other person does it due to them being trophies from exclusively long and difficult tasks that were surmounted by the individual. Sure, you can beat legends, and I'll agree to this, but it takes significantly more effort sometimes. And in the long run, unlike Megas and Z-Moves, Legends aren't easily obtainable. This creates a larger divide than ever between the top battlers and those below them besides EMs and skill. In the end, the difficulty would still be there without legends as in confidence I'm sure most of us can say that the Elite Four and Champion are the highest end battlers currently in URPG, but its only further exasperated by legendaries existing in this kind of format.

    On the trial run, the only people who can (theoretically) do this are the current Elite Four (and it would benefit me and FD the most), so I couldn't see this being the case but meh, who knows. I can agree that I don't think a trial run should be done though, and that a decision should be made overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by juliorain View Post
    I don't think your idea is strong enough to make it useful. Is this compromise only apllicable to the challengers that don't have legends? These considerations lead to unessesary complications. I thought about keeping only say T3 or T2 legends in the E4, but even then that's complex and will spark even more controversy. I think Monbrey's idea to go all or nothing is the simplest and most effective. I vote to keep it. It took so long to get here. While I'm ok without using Groudon, I literally can't use it elsewhere and nullifies the hard work I put into getting it. E4 is optional and if you can't handle the challenge and yet alone the champion, then why are you going through the gyms. It takes so much work to get through the gyms due to their varied strats and styles. Not to mention that you grow so much if you just keep pushing yourself to get better and better. By the time you reach E4 you should be prepared to handle anything.
    Originally, the tiering legends idea started so that people could earn less powerful legendaries if they wanted to for what could be considered less effort, and it felt like it wasn't even connected to the E4, but maybe it came off differently to me.

    Already said my thoughts about "not being able to use it anywhere else".

    This last part of the message, in my mind, just feels like a giant middle finger. I did put in the work to earn all the badges I have, and I do want to challenge the Elite Four, and I eventually will after I have some more time to work together some Pokemon that I currently own but haven't been able to work with due to my inability to be active. However, while I'm sure I can beat legendaries, the battles themselves will be significantly more difficult due to the limitation I'm at unless I earn a legendary by that time period, and I choose to make it a competitive one. This is an issue of power creep that's happened in URPG due to how Gamefreak has worked their game. There's few things that are close enough to the level of these monsters, and they limit aspects of battling just by existing. Teambuilding becomes focused around dealing with that one threat and hopefully covering yourself from it so that you can remove it and hope to take on the other Pokemon, while the other battler focuses on deciding what to use to counter whatever counters the challenger may own in order to make their legendary reign supreme. This power dynamic is only barely met by Megas, but after all is said and done, Legendaries themselves have a larger control on determining the strength of Pokemon. By the end of the day, they will be the ultimate deterrent from challenging Elite Four for those without one.

    @The last of the posts after this one by Julio, while I would be down to work on a tier system for legendaries, we need to decide whether we want to move on with any of the suggestions already brought up or if that's what is ultimately decided, and I don't believe talking about the tiers in this thread would be the best use of it.

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    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Throwing in the two cents I posted on Discord:

    It sounds like most folks agree that the existence of legends leads to a significant negative experience in competitive battling in the absence of a tier system.

    It also sounds like most folks agree that they'd like more opportunities for using legends.

    My suggestion was to ban legends from Gyms and the Elite Four, while removing the Legend Clause from casual battles. Get legends out of the top tier, where they seem to be a problem, and open it up for legends to be used in regular battles. Seems like if people are curbstomping casual battles with their legends, that should self-correct. Meanwhile folks won't feel pressured to claim the best legends over their favorites.

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    I agree with @Elrond's observations, but I disagree with the action and not sure how it translated in to that seeing as how he was interested in the fact that we were interested in tiering legends. There are legendary pokemon that aren't so strong that normal pokemon won't be deterred from battlings vs others that completely overpower.

    @Dash

    Quoting some of that large post.

    "Teambuilding becomes focused around dealing with that one threat and hopefully covering yourself from it so that you can remove it and hope to take on the other Pokemon, while the other battler focuses on deciding what to use to counter whatever counters the challenger may own in order to make their legendary reign supreme. This power dynamic is only barely met by Megas, but after all is said and done, Legendaries themselves have a larger control on determining the strength of Pokemon. By the end of the day, they will be the ultimate deterrent from challenging Elite Four for those without one.

    @The last of the posts after this one by Julio, while I would be down to work on a tier system for legendaries, we need to decide whether we want to move on with any of the suggestions already brought up or if that's what is ultimately decided, and I don't believe talking about the tiers in this thread would be the best use of it."

    It appears that roads are going to that. I understand that there are some that are just so op it isn't worth trying to but there are others that normal pokes can challenge as well.




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    King Stunfisk URPG Staff Mikey57's Avatar
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    Now, maybe this is a little silly of an idea, but what if we adapt something from the main games?

    E4 Rematches!

    What if we kept the first E4 level where legends were kept out and it was a competitive level that was open to all battlers without the pressure of needing a legend to do well.

    Beating the champion of the first E4 gets you any non-legendary Pokemon as a result, similar to when Ash took back the original champion spot and couldn't claim a second legend from it.

    The second E4 would be similar to the rematches like in the main series titles; bumped levels of difficulty, which often had rosters change to become more challenging. So, what if those changes involved competitve legends and offered a legend for dethroning the champion of that league? Of course, it would be a one time claim.

    This idea is only really fit for if legends are either completely shut off from E4 or tier systems prevent the competitive (Rayquaza, Mewtwo, etc) legendaries somewhere to thrive and flourish to really work towards earning a reward worth it's rank.

    Sorry if my idea is very thinly laid out, mobile stinks and this will more than likely be in TC on Discord lol.

    Just thought I'd make a suggestion that isn't out of the park (baseball)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey57 View Post
    Now, maybe this is a little silly of an idea, but what if we adapt something from the main games?

    E4 Rematches!

    What if we kept the first E4 level where legends were kept out and it was a competitive level that was open to all battlers without the pressure of needing a legend to do well.

    Beating the champion of the first E4 gets you any non-legendary Pokemon as a result, similar to when Ash took back the original champion spot and couldn't claim a second legend from it.

    The second E4 would be similar to the rematches like in the main series titles; bumped levels of difficulty, which often had rosters change to become more challenging. So, what if those changes involved competitve legends and offered a legend for dethroning the champion of that league? Of course, it would be a one time claim.

    This idea is only really fit for if legends are either completely shut off from E4 or tier systems prevent the competitive (Rayquaza, Mewtwo, etc) legendaries somewhere to thrive and flourish to really work towards earning a reward worth it's rank.

    Sorry if my idea is very thinly laid out, mobile stinks and this will more than likely be in TC on Discord lol.

    Just thought I'd make a suggestion that isn't out of the park (baseball)!

    Good idea, but that is way more complex than it needs to be, two E4 run no legends by default, and we're free to do this anyway in a casual setting. I don't think we have enough challengers for this as well.

    Nor am I sure what a 'harder lineup' would consist of? at that point we might as well do that casually with access to our full URPG roster.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Throwing in the two cents I posted on Discord:

    It sounds like most folks agree that the existence of legends leads to a significant negative experience in competitive battling in the absence of a tier system.

    It also sounds like most folks agree that they'd like more opportunities for using legends.

    My suggestion was to ban legends from Gyms and the Elite Four, while removing the Legend Clause from casual battles. Get legends out of the top tier, where they seem to be a problem, and open it up for legends to be used in regular battles. Seems like if people are curbstomping casual battles with their legends, that should self-correct. Meanwhile folks won't feel pressured to claim the best legends over their favorites.
    I (personally, of course) would be very in favor of this if this was a hard and fast rule (as in, Legend Clause CANNOT be turned on in any casual battle, period, but will always be enabled in E4/Champ). While I don't necessarily like that top tier pokemon wouldn't be allowed to be used in the highest tier of battling, it at least leaves an incentive to obtain a Legend (and any Legend, not just 1/10 top tier ones).

    EDIT: If this helps get rid of the stigma that Legends shouldn't be allowed to be used in casual battles too, then I'm all for trying it as well.
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    URPG Official URPG Staff Fierce Deity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Throwing in the two cents I posted on Discord:

    It sounds like most folks agree that the existence of legends leads to a significant negative experience in competitive battling in the absence of a tier system.

    It also sounds like most folks agree that they'd like more opportunities for using legends.

    My suggestion was to ban legends from Gyms and the Elite Four, while removing the Legend Clause from casual battles. Get legends out of the top tier, where they seem to be a problem, and open it up for legends to be used in regular battles. Seems like if people are curbstomping casual battles with their legends, that should self-correct. Meanwhile folks won't feel pressured to claim the best legends over their favorites.
    Supporting this too. As a member who doesn't own one legend I find this favorable for both sides. Legends will actually (and can't be turned off in regular battles unless both battlers opt for it) and takes them out of the really important battles where it could take 2+ Pokemon to take down one legend.

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