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Thread: *Beginner's* URPG League

  1. #31
    evanfardreamer's Avatar
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    I too am a sucker for a nicely done project plan :) I support Monbrey's idea, it captures the high points of type spread, clear progression, and it is cohesive enough that it doesn't feel like a kiddie league set apart from the real thing.

    18 and 8 I think is the sweet spot for number of gyms. I think it will generate enough interest to keep them mostly full, for instance I would possibly be interested in a novice gym position but I know I am not ready to run an advanced one (I briefly had Hearthome before reorg and I don't think I defended it well. I had a decent record in my ghost dojo stint though).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    If I'm reading the room correctly, it sounds like we have a consensus on "separate leagues, separate leaders" so I think we can move on to the next topic.


    I want to formalize the project process here, so let me synthesize a couple things:


    Project Objective(s)


    To create a Novice version of the gym system that allows new battlers to get their feet wet in the URPG meta and to make real progress toward enticing goals in the Battles section, and provides a space for new gym leaders to do the same.


    Secondarily, to reduce or simplify the current gym system into a size and format more appropriate for our current membership.


    Requirements


    1. No loss of progress (i.e. badges) for current URPG members.
    2. Current gym leaders will not be at risk of losing their gym.


    Completed Decisions


    1. The Novice and Advanced leagues will be made up of separate gym leaders.


    Current Topic


    What is the maximum number of gyms that should exist within each league? How many gyms should exist overall? (Please note that divvying up types is out of scope for this discussion unless your proposal ties the number of gyms to the number of types somehow.)


    Future Topics


    1. How many gyms should a challenger be required to complete to finish the Novice league? The Advanced league?
    2. Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms? Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?
    3. Should players be restricted from challenging the Novice league if they are too experienced?
    4. Once we have decided on the number of gyms in each league, how will we decide which current gym leaders go where?
    5. How will the different gym types be split between each league?
    6. How will gym leaders in the Novice league be formally restricted to an appropriate difficulty level, if at all?
    7. Will a process exist by which gym leaders in the Novice league will be asked to leave the league if they become too strong? If so, how?
    8. What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?
    9. Should the Novice league award belts, badges, or some other form of prize? If badges, how should they be divvied up between the leagues?
    10. Should there be any changes made to the current leader challenge process by which non-leaders can earn currently-filled gyms?
    11. How should progress in the current system translate into progress in the new gym system?


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Current Topic


    What is the maximum number of gyms that should exist within each league? How many gyms should exist overall?


    My personal opinion is that the max number of gyms should be slightly lower than the number of players who want them. That way, we can nearly guarantee that all possible gyms are filled at all times. At the moment, I believe the optimal number of gyms to meet that goal is about 24, half in each league.


    There have been other suggestions, however, such as capping the number of gyms at one per type in each league. I believe there was another suggestion, which was one per type in the Advanced league and basing the size of the Novice league on interest.


    Nitro suggested a limit of ten gyms in the Advanced league and eight in the Novice league.


    Please add your input to the discussion below.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Point of Order


    I am extremely pleased with the discussion so far, and I think it's crucial that we keep ourselves focused in on one topic at a time.


    If you have an idea, question or issue that isn't related to the current topic, please bring it up! Please consider submitting it as a "Requirement" or "Future Topic" however. As an example, Julio was very concerned that he might lose badge progress if we removed some current gyms. This is an excellent topic to discuss, but in the spirit of keeping the project management process clean, I've listed it at the top as a "Requirement" and I've made sure it's in the "Future Topics" list so that we can discuss how to implement it at an appropriate time.


    I understand there are some topics that may cause concern, and I want to ensure we hear and record all of those concerns so that we don't create significant dissatisfaction for anyone. It's important, however, that we don't get off-topic. Please trust that I'm listening and will bring up any issues when it's time to do so.


    Similarly, please feel free to raise your hand and say "Can we please go back to topic X after we finish discussing this one?", especially if new information changes a past opinion. This will help us to ensure your voice is heard while allowing us to stay on task with the topic we're already discussing.
    first off I think your method of presentation is completely unnatural like we can only reply to a list of x things? also you've kinda hijacked this thread.

    "
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    If I'm reading the room correctly, it sounds like we have a consensus on "separate leagues, separate leaders" so I think we can move on to the next topic.
    saying we've reached a consensus is completely misleading and confusing since if you're keeping the same leaders but subdividing them based on skill. Your idea is same leaders, different league. We're not addressing comments in parliamentary procedure nor are we making speeches lol.

    "There have been other suggestions, however, such as capping the number of gyms at one per type in each league. I believe there was another suggestion, which was one per type in the Advanced league and basing the size of the Novice league on interest.


    Nitro suggested a limit of ten gyms in the Advanced league and eight in the Novice league.


    Please add your input to the discussion below. "

    I think that is far too few. Monbrey has it better.

    @Monbrey I think that keeping all 36 leaders--one of each type for the advanced, and then the remaining 18 can be subdivided

    like you said only 8 was needed for the beginning league so put 8 of them in it. and remaining 10 in the between-zone. That way there is a smooth transition from one area to the next if the leader gets better over time.

    Time to fill out your form:

    2. Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms?

    I've this again and again: NO.

    Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?

    NO.

    3. Should players be restricted from challenging the Novice league if they are too experienced?

    NO (if they don't have the badge already)

    4. Once we have decided on the number of gyms in each league, how will we decide which current gym leaders go where?

    We've already talked about teiring and leaving to LO. It is anoying to have us include the LO in involved but your idea forces their involvement.

    5. How will the different gym types be split between each league?
    @Monbrey

    6. How will gym leaders in the Novice league be formally restricted to an appropriate difficulty level, if at all?

    Check my original idea. THE RULES CAN BE TWEAKED. They are not set in stone. OR just cut and paste the current system. Your idea is nothing more than a label. If the novice gyms are made by unskilled leaders, then matching the leader skill to the challenger will ease that problem and no change will be needed.

    7. Will a process exist by which gym leaders in the Novice league will be asked to leave the league if they become too strong? If so, how?

    Yes; with the advent of a buffer zone they can go there.

    8. What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?

    My idea suggested belts. but only because they were an alternative lineup.

    9. Should the Novice league award belts, badges, or some other form of prize? If badges, how should they be divvied up between the leagues?

    Tehy should award badges; if they don't then they don't count for e4 progress, which they should.

    10. Should there be any changes made to the current leader challenge process by which non-leaders can earn currently-filled gyms?

    No.

    11. How should progress in the current system translate into progress in the new gym system?

    No change.
    Last edited by juliorain; 02-28-18 at 11:21 AM.




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  3. #33
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juliorain View Post
    first off I think your method of presentation is completely unnatural like we can only reply to a list of x things?
    Actually, I'm trying to keep the responses to one topic, listed clearly under "Current Topic".

    The list is there to keep track of what we'll want to talk about in the future. That way, people can raise new concerns or questions without dragging the current discussion off topic.

    saying we've reached a consensus is completely misleading and confusing since if you're keeping the same leaders but subdividing them based on skill. Your idea is same leaders, different league.
    My idea is to have a Novice league and an Advanced league, with different leaders in each. That's "separate leagues, separate leaders."

    It sounded like towards the end of last night you had changed your mind to agree, in general, with this idea. If that's not the case, then I need you to be clearer about where your opinions lie. The problem I see is that in the quote above, it seems like you're deliberately mis-characterizing my idea. I have been very clear about the nature of my idea, and I need to ensure that you understand and give a clear agreement or not.


    I think that is far too few. Monbrey has it better.

    @Monbrey I think that keeping all 36 leaders--one of each type for the advanced, and then the remaining 18 can be subdivided

    like you said only 8 was needed for the beginning league so put 8 of them in it. and remaining 10 in the between-zone. That way there is a smooth transition from one area to the next if the leader gets better over time.
    Thank you for this input on the current topic. It sounds like you are agreeing with Monbrey initially, with 18 in the Advanced league and 8 in the Novice league.

    I'm not sure why you're bringing up an in-between zone, however. That just sounds like adding a separate league on top of what we've already discussed--despite the fact that we couldn't even fill it, with our current membership.

    I need you to be clearer about what you mean, here. Otherwise, it sounds like you're on board with the 18/8 split, which is the part of your post that's pertinent to the current topic.

    Time to fill out your form:
    This is specifically what I did not want you to do. These topics are listed under "Future" so that we know to talk about them in the future. Please bring up the points you raised here when we get to the relevant topic. And please ensure you maintain focus on the current topic as we continue the discussion.

  4. #34
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    2018-02-28:
    - Agreed that the proper gym split is 18 gyms in the Advanced league and 8 in the Novice league. Added disclaimer that the Novice league may expand based on activity. Novice league may begin larger if needed.

    2018-03-01:
    - Agreed that a player will be required to defeat 6 Novice gyms to challenge Advanced gyms. A player will be required to defeat 8 Novice gyms to challenge the Novice Champion. A player will be required to beat 14 Advanced gyms to challenge the Elite Four.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Project Objective(s)


    To create a Novice version of the gym system that allows new battlers to get their feet wet in the URPG meta and to make real progress toward enticing goals in the Battles section, and provides a space for new gym leaders to do the same.

    Secondarily, to reduce or simplify the current gym system into a size and format more appropriate for our current membership.

    Requirements

    1. No loss of progress (i.e. badges) for current URPG members.
    2. Current gym leaders will not be at risk of losing their gym.

    Completed Decisions

    1. The Novice and Advanced leagues will be made up of separate gym leaders.
    2. The Advanced league will contain 18 gyms, one for each type.
    3. The Novice league will ideally contain 8 gyms.
    4. Prospective gym leaders in the Novice league can apply for any type not already taken, but may not be considered until current leaders leave their gyms.
    5. A player must defeat 6 Novice gyms in order to challenge an Advanced gym. A player will not be required to defeat the Novice Champion before challenging Advanced gyms.
    6. A player must defeat 8 Novice gyms in order to challenge the Novice Champion.
    7. A player must defeat 14 Advanced gyms in order to challenge the Elite Four.

    Current Topic

    What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?

    Future Topics

    1. How many gyms should a challenger be required to complete to finish the Novice league? The Advanced league?
    2. Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms? Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?
    3. Should players be restricted from challenging the Novice league if they are too experienced?
    4. Once we have decided on the number of gyms in each league, how will we decide which current gym leaders go where?
    5. How will the different gym types be split between each league?
    6. How will gym leaders in the Novice league be formally restricted to an appropriate difficulty level, if at all?
    7. Will a process exist by which gym leaders in the Novice league will be asked to leave the league if they become too strong? If so, how?
    8. What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?
    9. Should the Novice league award belts, badges, or some other form of prize? If badges, how should they be divvied up between the leagues?
    10. Should there be any changes made to the current leader challenge process by which non-leaders can earn currently-filled gyms?
    11. How should progress in the current system translate into progress in the new gym system?
    12. How do we decide who will be the first Novice champion?
    13. Who will be the League Organizer(s) for each of the new leagues?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by Elrond; 03-01-18 at 08:03 PM.

  5. #35
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Hearing no objections, we'll move forward with the idea of 18 gyms in the Advanced league and 8 gyms in the Novice league.

    Please see below for a description of our next topic, and please see this post for a summary of the project thus far. I'll be keeping that post updated as we discuss topics and make decisions.

    Current Topic

    How many gyms should a challenger be required to complete to finish the Novice league? The Advanced league?

    There have been a couple of suggestions for the badge requirement in the Advanced league. One suggestion is that a gym challenger should be required to prove themselves against all 18 types before challenging the Elite Four. This would require 100% completion. On the other hand, there is a suggestion that challengers should be able to challenge the Elite Four without having been every single gym in the Advanced league.

    The Novice league, which we've notionally capped at 8 gyms, seems set up for success at a 100% badge/belt requirement. (To put it more simply, you'd need 8 Novice badges/belts to complete it). What should we do in situations where we increase the cap on the number of gyms in the league, however? Should the badge requirement be set at 8, or should it increase with the size of the Novice league?

  6. #36
    URPG Demoderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    The only reason we ever reduced it from 100% was due to difficulty scheduling challenges with particular leaders. Assuming we are more proactive about maintaining demand a filling the gyms with active leaders, I'd suggest we go back to 100% completion.

    Or at least, 100% of the filled gyms.

  7. #37
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    We're switching gears for a moment. There is some concern that it's difficult to set a badge requirement, particularly for the Novice league, without knowing what the prize is.

    Please see below for a description of our next topic, and please see this post for a summary of the project thus far. I'll be keeping that post updated as we discuss topics and make decisions.

    Current Topic

    Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms? Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?

    What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?

    Some suggestions so far:

    - Require partial completion of Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms.
    - Do not require full completion + champion before challenging Advanced gyms.
    - Defeating Novice champion can earn a separate prize, possibly Pokemon.
    Last edited by Elrond; 02-28-18 at 06:12 PM.

  8. #38
    evanfardreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Current Topic

    Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms? Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?

    What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?

    Some suggestions so far:

    - Require partial completion of Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms.
    - Do not require full completion + champion before challenging Advanced gyms.
    - Defeating Novice champion can earn a separate prize, possibly Pokemon.
    I don't think we should require completion of Novice to challenge Advanced. If someone really knows what they're doing, it's a barrier or hassle rather than an introduction. I do think we should disqualify someone from challenging or being the novice champion if they have more than a few advanced badges, though.

    First thought is to keep, if you defeat the Champ you become the next Champ. As for prizes, I'm a cynic and think we should proactively tackle win trading or the like. I think that once someone becomes the Novice champion they don't get to keep challenging future Novice gyms, and once they are defeated they can't then be Novice champ again. Perhaps for anyone who becomes the Novice champion gets a Medium Pokemon after their term, and a Hard one if they successfully defend at least 5 times. For moneys, make Novice champ battles pay the same as E4 challenges, and the Gym battles pay less (not a lot less) than an Advanced gym battle.
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  9. #39
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evanfardreamer View Post
    I don't think we should require completion of Novice to challenge Advanced. If someone really knows what they're doing, it's a barrier or hassle rather than an introduction. I do think we should disqualify someone from challenging or being the novice champion if they have more than a few advanced badges, though.

    First thought is to keep, if you defeat the Champ you become the next Champ. As for prizes, I'm a cynic and think we should proactively tackle win trading or the like. I think that once someone becomes the Novice champion they don't get to keep challenging future Novice gyms, and once they are defeated they can't then be Novice champ again. Perhaps for anyone who becomes the Novice champion gets a Medium Pokemon after their term, and a Hard one if they successfully defend at least 5 times. For moneys, make Novice champ battles pay the same as E4 challenges, and the Gym battles pay less (not a lot less) than an Advanced gym battle.
    The current thread in our discussion on Discord seems to be leaning toward the following:

    6/8 Novice gyms required to challenge Advanced gyms
    Beating the Novice Champ not required to face Advanced gyms
    8/8 Novice gyms required to challenge Novice Champ, which will reward some sort of extra prize

    We haven't talked much about how the Novice champ will work or what it will reward, etc. That'll be a future discussion, I think. Let me know your thoughts on the requirements I posted here, though!

  10. #40
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    I also think it's a good idea to have 100% completion to challenge the novice champ.
    For moving up a league, fine, you can do it while in novice, why not? You'll probably get steamrolled! If you survive in the advanced league for 4 badges, you've probably not fluked your way through, and would no longer qualify as a novice. I don't see why we should require completion of novice to move up a league-- some people learn so quickly! But if you're too good, you'll be locked out from being in with the novices and crushing them lol.

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