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Thread: *Beginner's* URPG League

  1. #21
    Super Moderator URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorSuper Moderator Elrond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evanfardreamer View Post
    Well, now I feel dumb - I hadn't even looked at the current gym setup because it apparently changed in 2013. According to the current info dex, we have 25ish people who are gym leaders. I do like a cap of no more than two of a type, and am not opposed but have concerns if we bring it below one gym per type.

    If less than one gym per type total -
    a) who picks what types they are, interested potential gym leaders or a league organizer?
    b) once gym types are selected, and one comes vacant - is it replaced by the same type? or is it open to pick again?
    c) would type overlap be allowed, or would it be no more than one per type?
    d) what do we do with the high number of gym leaders who would be displaced, that doesn't make them want to leave URPG?

    I do think we should consider the veteran and novice gyms separately for purposes of structure, even if there is leader overlap in some fashion. I liked Syn's idea above that the size of the novice league depends on interest, if only five people want to be novice gym leaders then we only have five, with no type overlap. Capping it at 12 feels good so it's not overly crazy on the novice LO. Then when a position opens up - or if the LO feels they need more people with novice gyms - they can set up a mini-tourney among interested people, maybe using the teams they would have if they were defending their proposed novice gym.
    Wanted to respond to evanfardreamer in a separate post since I didn't see his reply till I had posted my last one.

    I think a) through c) are important questions, but I want to keep a single-topic focus as much as possible. These are questions I think we'd answer after we decide on the size and format--unless you want to discuss determining those specifically by the number of types (e.g. one per type).

    For d), I talked about this a little in my above post. Essentially, our current ideas for sizing might not require booting anybody. If our ideal size turned out to be smaller than the current number of leaders, then for example, we could temporarily keep them all and just not open new spaces when the first few leave.
    Last edited by Elrond; 02-27-18 at 05:28 PM.

  2. #22
    Bubblebeam
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    This is more a process-related post, coz there seems to be a lot of great discussion going on here and I don't have much to add, but URPG is trying to go for more group-orientated decision making than single people, right?

    Once we decide on the options available, why not make a poll? Or series of polls!
    Then once it's decided, we can work together to figure out solutions to any problems we come across.
    Im just thinking it might be too much work to figure out all solutions to all changes before they even occur!

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lychee View Post
    This is more a process-related post, coz there seems to be a lot of great discussion going on here and I don't have much to add, but URPG is trying to go for more group-orientated decision making than single people, right?

    Once we decide on the options available, why not make a poll? Or series of polls!
    Then once it's decided, we can work together to figure out solutions to any problems we come across.
    Im just thinking it might be too much work to figure out all solutions to all changes before they even occur!
    I think most people seem to be on board with Elrond's after tweaking, actually. Most of the TC discussion what people saying that my idea was inferior to elrond's so... that seems to be popular opinion! Thanks for trying to help.


    Most I'll be fine with elrond's idea if the following conditions are met:

    1) I'm not a fan of laddering, but if it helps give newcomers confidence, I'll be ok. If gym leaders would be allowed to move up over time, I'll be ok.

    2) I really dislike the idea of forceful rotating. That just messes up the skill dynamic (that the laddering tried so hard to establish) so that you have overqualified leaders for under-qualified challengers and vice versa.

    3) E4 eligibility doesn't change and gym leaders can keep their gyms. We don't have enough active members right now to continuously cycle new gym leaders.




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  5. #24
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    As an add-on to Julio's second point: I think raising the standards for activity accomplishes most of what forced rotations hope to do, without actually forcing anyone to do anything other than to be regularly available.
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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    Wanted to respond to evanfardreamer in a separate post since I didn't see his reply till I had posted my last one.

    I think a) through c) are important questions, but I want to keep a single-topic focus as much as possible. These are questions I think we'd answer after we decide on the size and format--unless you want to discuss determining those specifically by the number of types (e.g. one per type).

    For d), I talked about this a little in my above post. Essentially, our current ideas for sizing might not require booting anybody. If our ideal size turned out to be smaller than the current number of leaders, then for example, we could temporarily keep them all and just not open new spaces when the first few leave.
    Thanks for the targeted reply :) Your preceding post actually cleared up several misconceptions or misunderstandings I had about the current state of gyms. I figured everyone currently running a gym would want to run a veteran gym, but if some are happy to fall under the 'novice' umbrella then hurt feelings are avoided.

    I saw a-c as being relevant to the proposed structure but if you think they're better deliberated later I'll gladly defer to your experience. I'm probably coming off too strongly anyways, wading into discussions on an element I've been away from for years. I've just learned that if people ask for opinions and I have one, I may as well share it and it can be discarded if not relevant.
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  8. #26
    Super Moderator URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorSuper Moderator Elrond's Avatar
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    If I'm reading the room correctly, it sounds like we have a consensus on "separate leagues, separate leaders" so I think we can move on to the next topic.


    I want to formalize the project process here, so let me synthesize a couple things:


    Project Objective(s)


    To create a Novice version of the gym system that allows new battlers to get their feet wet in the URPG meta and to make real progress toward enticing goals in the Battles section, and provides a space for new gym leaders to do the same.


    Secondarily, to reduce or simplify the current gym system into a size and format more appropriate for our current membership.


    Requirements


    1. No loss of progress (i.e. badges) for current URPG members.
    2. Current gym leaders will not be at risk of losing their gym.


    Completed Decisions


    1. The Novice and Advanced leagues will be made up of separate gym leaders.


    Current Topic


    What is the maximum number of gyms that should exist within each league? How many gyms should exist overall? (Please note that divvying up types is out of scope for this discussion unless your proposal ties the number of gyms to the number of types somehow.)


    Future Topics


    1. How many gyms should a challenger be required to complete to finish the Novice league? The Advanced league?
    2. Should a player be required to complete the Novice league before challenging Advanced gyms? Should a player be required to beat the Novice league Champion before challenging Advanced gyms?
    3. Should players be restricted from challenging the Novice league if they are too experienced?
    4. Once we have decided on the number of gyms in each league, how will we decide which current gym leaders go where?
    5. How will the different gym types be split between each league?
    6. How will gym leaders in the Novice league be formally restricted to an appropriate difficulty level, if at all?
    7. Will a process exist by which gym leaders in the Novice league will be asked to leave the league if they become too strong? If so, how?
    8. What prize should be awarded for beating the Novice league champion, if any?
    9. Should the Novice league award belts, badges, or some other form of prize? If badges, how should they be divvied up between the leagues?
    10. Should there be any changes made to the current leader challenge process by which non-leaders can earn currently-filled gyms?
    11. How should progress in the current system translate into progress in the new gym system?


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Current Topic


    What is the maximum number of gyms that should exist within each league? How many gyms should exist overall?


    My personal opinion is that the max number of gyms should be slightly lower than the number of players who want them. That way, we can nearly guarantee that all possible gyms are filled at all times. At the moment, I believe the optimal number of gyms to meet that goal is about 24, half in each league.


    There have been other suggestions, however, such as capping the number of gyms at one per type in each league. I believe there was another suggestion, which was one per type in the Advanced league and basing the size of the Novice league on interest.


    Nitro suggested a limit of ten gyms in the Advanced league and eight in the Novice league.


    Please add your input to the discussion below.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Point of Order


    I am extremely pleased with the discussion so far, and I think it's crucial that we keep ourselves focused in on one topic at a time.


    If you have an idea, question or issue that isn't related to the current topic, please bring it up! Please consider submitting it as a "Requirement" or "Future Topic" however. As an example, Julio was very concerned that he might lose badge progress if we removed some current gyms. This is an excellent topic to discuss, but in the spirit of keeping the project management process clean, I've listed it at the top as a "Requirement" and I've made sure it's in the "Future Topics" list so that we can discuss how to implement it at an appropriate time.


    I understand there are some topics that may cause concern, and I want to ensure we hear and record all of those concerns so that we don't create significant dissatisfaction for anyone. It's important, however, that we don't get off-topic. Please trust that I'm listening and will bring up any issues when it's time to do so.


    Similarly, please feel free to raise your hand and say "Can we please go back to topic X after we finish discussing this one?", especially if new information changes a past opinion. This will help us to ensure your voice is heard while allowing us to stay on task with the topic we're already discussing.

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  10. #27
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go half and half. My guess is that people will grow out of Novice, not necessarily quickly, but faster than they will grow out of Advanced. In my experience, the difference between good gyms and E4 is an even larger curve than actually learning how to play the game. It can be a multi-year process. Basically, there will be more people at the Advanced level, or more people who are above average than below average in terms of how I see the difference between the leagues.

    Whatever number we go with -- I feel anywhere between 18, with one type per gym as Monbrey suggested, or 24 is reasonable -- I think we should cap Novice at 8 or 10, with the remainder going to Advanced. Especially since that league will (presumably) require 100% completion to move on and Advanced (presumably; will die on this hill) won't.

    edit: I like Monbrey's version
    Last edited by Nitro; 02-27-18 at 11:00 PM.
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  11. #28
    URPG Demoderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Strongly support having one gym of each type in the Advanced League (18 total).
    For challengers, this means needing to defeat each of the possible monotype lineups and maximising the different strategies required.
    For each leader, its a position of recognition as the user of that type in URPG.

    For the novice league, I don't think a second 18 is particularly realistic nor does it solve any issues. I'd pick a smaller number, maybe 8-10, and this would act as a cap on the number of Novice gyms without specifying types required. Novice gym leaders could apply for any type that wasn't already taken within that capped number.

    Hypothetically, this could look like:
    Flying, Water, Fire, Grass, Electric, Fairy, Dragon, Ground (8/8)
    New leader applies for a Bug lineup, has to wait in queue (9/8)
    Any of the original 8 drop, replaced by Bug lineup (8/8)

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  13. #29
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    BTW I love the way you've organised the discussion Elrond! (I'm a fan of lists!)

    In terms of the maximum #of gyms in each league, it makes sense to have one of each type for the advanced- where the gym leaders will be going all-out and the competition and strategy only gets fiercer in the E4.

    For the Starter League (or whatever we are calling it!) I think 9 or less seems like a good amount. Half the available monotypes. Probably more than 4, because that's a little too quick. The specific number there is important to have filled, if we require 100% Starter completion for players who go into the meta-intro route.
    8 seems achieveable.

  14. #30
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    I'm a toss in my 2 cents. :D

    I've been in URPG (on and off) since 2003 and even with how long I've been in it I'm still nowhere near some people in terms of skill level. I'm bad at remembering things or what might be good to use at certain times during a battle. And I know for a fact I pretty much SUCK! My W/L record shows it. I feel like now a days it's sheer dumb luck if I win a battle not gonna lie...lol. And now I've taken up the Viridian City Gym to try and test my skills and force myself to get better.

    I was one of the first one to raise their hands and say yeah I'll be a Novice Gym Leader in the Beginner League. I know I'm not that good and that's just me telling myself that. It's not that we're bad we just lack skill and timing.

    Other than having a Leader Roll Call we should try and take a look at everyone (leaders and regulars) and see where everyone is at. See who all wants a gym and do numbers from there and granted not everyone is going to get a gym because let's face it we're not Oprah where You get a Gym and You get a Gym YOU ALL GET GYMS. xD I mean I have no clue who's better than who or who would be a novice (other than me). If I have to be the test dummy for novice side I don't mind because if I can do it anyone should be able to do it.

    The last thing I want to point out and what everyone to remember nothing is ever set in stone. If something doesn't work out we can always go back to what we had. We might have to deal with it for the short term but if for some reason it doesn't work out how we thought go back and try again.

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