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Thread: *Beginner's* URPG League

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    Default *Beginner's* URPG League

    Nitro had a wonderful idea in discord to make a beginner's league. We have made dojos in the past as a sort of pre-gym thing, HOWEVER, this idea worked on with Xali, Mistral, and Gray, we've decided that alternative to the gym model:

    The mini gym league will feature its own e4 and champion, and will have 18 gyms to choose from, being one of each type. Basically, my current line up is 15 pokemon including one Wild Card. For the beginner's league the gym leader will have a small line up of 6 pokemon (no Wild Card) abiding by the following rules:


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    1) Gym leaders can only use a Small, Set Lineup
    2) Neither Gym Leader nor Challenger can use any EMs
    3) Challenger Sends First
    4) Standard pay, no TM awarded, and a "Belt" awarded to the succesfull challenger


    We believe that these rules will provide a newcomer a sufficient challenge to begin working out how to defeat gyms while crippling the experience of the gym leader. We will have the standard league with 36 gyms total will still be available to challenge.

    We thought it would be a good idea for those who do not currently have any URPG League badges or have a few but still need to learn the ropes a bit more. We think that by the time the player has 5 beginning league belts they can move on to the more advanced, standard league challenges, or continue and try and clear 75% of the occupied gyms for the Elite Four of the beginner's league.

    To begin, we think that the current Elite Four and Champion will assume their roles for the beginning league Elite Four.

    We are open to hiring new gym leaders to do this or have the current gym leaders use the pokemon from their line up to provide the beginner challenge.
    Last edited by juliorain; 02-25-18 at 05:57 PM.




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    Soviet Bidoof Commander Xali's Avatar
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    I like a lot of what we were able to hammer out.

    I do however have two things that come to mind.
    1. I’m fine removing the wildcards, but maybe we can keep the leaders with the rest of their current lineup. This keeps the battling more realistic in terms of moving onto full-fledged battles.
    2. I don’t really see the point of having E4/Champion level trainers for this level of gameplay. If you earn 75% of the badges at this point I’m fairly confident that you are ready to move on to the standard game. Even when participating in the standard game there is already a stark difference of power dynamics between gym battles and E4 battles.

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    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    Should clarify this is not my idea lol, but Dojo is so frequently talked about (it was during one of my hiatuses so I have no personal experience) that I think a revival of some sort would do well

    Also, the skill curve in URPG battling is so steep that introducing an in-between step might ease more battlers into tackling the gym system
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xali View Post
    I like a lot of what we were able to hammer out.

    I do however have two things that come to mind.
    1. I’m fine removing the wildcards, but maybe we can keep the leaders with the rest of their current lineup. This keeps the battling more realistic in terms of moving onto full-fledged battles.
    2. I don’t really see the point of having E4/Champion level trainers for this level of gameplay. If you earn 75% of the badges at this point I’m fairly confident that you are ready to move on to the standard game. Even when participating in the standard game there is already a stark difference of power dynamics between gym battles and E4 battles.
    1. right so you want to keep the current gym leaders or if we do keep their current line up? Say for instance in my case, losing Washtom would rid of my team some very useful Water Stab. Jellicent is the only alternative, but Rotom-Wash is clearly superior, but I don't run it into my standard line up. Imposing this rule would force me to add Jellicent back in lol. I'm sure it could change a lot of other gym leaders' line up as well if they have to incorporate other pokemon into their line-ups.

    2. Good point; if theyre at 75% cleared they should be already working at normal badges by then. So I guess no e4 and champ! :0




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    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    I'm pretty passionate about this idea, but I want to bring up a couple points that I think would be important for ensuring its success.

    Here's the tl;dr version to start:
    1. Let's reduce the number of gyms, total, to 8-12 per league, with all badges required to complete a league.
    2. Use less-experienced gym leaders, or have the LOs work together with gym leaders to restrict difficulty, rather than using ultra-restrictive rules for everyone in the Novice league.
    3. We should probably be rotating gyms in both the Novice and Advanced leagues, perhaps on a yearly basis.
    4. Introduce a Novice League Champion to be a milestone between the Novice and Advanced leagues.

    Let's take the opportunity to reduce the size of our gym system

    First, I'm against adding another eighteen gyms onto our current gym system, as we already struggle to keep thirty-six gyms filled. In fact, I would strongly advocate drastically reducing the total number of gyms to eighteen--Novice and Advanced leagues together.

    Eighteen is simply too big a number to require before hitting some sort of checkpoint. Thirty-six is even worse.

    I think the ideal number of gyms in a league would be somewhere between eight and twelve, with all badges required to complete a league, and important milestones at the end of each. More on this later.

    Edit: Another reason why I want to reduce the number of gyms is that it solves the "No one wants to battle Ash" problem. If the number of gyms is drastically reduced, then we can go back to requiring 100% completion. You can't game that kind of system to get around the players you don't want to fight.

    Restrict difficulty by pruning gym leaders, rather than adding lots of extra rules

    The Novice League should offer new players the opportunity to lead gyms in addition to battling them. Restricting lineups, moves, and rules too heavily could risk handicapping those less experienced leaders who are themselves learning to navigate the gym system.

    Instead, the League Organizer(s) for the Novice League should be empowered to remove leaders who they feel have passed a certain skill level. Alternatively, the LO(s) could be empowered to have a discussion with their leaders to introduce rules at the individual level. Like, if an experienced battler ended up with a Novice gym, the LO could suggest they use certain held item strategies more regularly and avoid others. I think having a team of LOs--probably two per league--would facilitate this kind of discussion really well.

    To reduce feelbads, we could bake some sort of term limit into the system...

    Introduce gym rotation to keep things fresh and to reduce the impact of inactivity

    Personally, I like the idea of both the Novice and Advanced leagues being subject to some sort of rotation. Perhaps once each year, maybe staggered by six months between the two leagues, some or all of the gym leaders should come up for renewal. Maybe in the Advanced League, for example, you have to challenge the current leader for their gym. In the Novice League, we could clear all of them out, and have a mini gym tourney, or something.

    To create an enticing milestone, let's introduce a Novice League Champion who players can challenge after beating the Novice league.

    I like the idea of having just one champion, rather than a full Elite Four, available to challenge after a player defeats the Novice league. In addition to providing an attractive milestone, this single Champion would be a perfect introduction to the more advanced strategies they'll see later on in URPG. The champion would similarly rotate (maybe when you beat the champion, you become the champion?) and, like the URPG Champion, maybe players who defeat the Novice League Champ could choose a Pokemon from the Hard ranks or below as a prize.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    One last thought: Unlike the Dojo system, we could allow older URPG players to challenge the Novice League. It'd be something like, each badge from before the creation of the Novice league would count as a badge in the new system. So if a player had 12 badges already and the total number of gyms between both leagues was 20, they'd be considered to have completed the Novice league and need 8 more badges to complete the Advanced league. Players in this position could still be allowed to challenge the Novice League Champion for their shot at the one-time Pokemon prize.
    Last edited by Elrond; 02-25-18 at 06:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    I'm pretty passionate about this idea, but I want to bring up a couple points that I think would be important for ensuring its success.

    Here's the tl;dr version to start:
    1. Let's reduce the number of gyms, total, to 8-12 per league, with all badges required to complete a league.
    2. Use less-experienced gym leaders, or have the LOs work together with gym leaders to restrict difficulty, rather than using ultra-restrictive rules for everyone in the Novice league.
    3. We should probably be rotating gyms in both the Novice and Advanced leagues, perhaps on a yearly basis.
    4. Introduce a Novice League Champion to be a milestone between the Novice and Advanced leagues.
    1. I would be okay with this... maybe? We can discuss this more.

    2. I dont like the idea of adding more people to the system. This is to maintained things as streamlined as possible.

    3. I’m gonna knock this one down before it even takes off. I don’t agree to this. You should strive to beat every obstacle in your way. You may not be able to swim against the current when you first get into the water, but thats why you improve your technique and keep practising.

    4. I, again, do not see the point of adding more people to the system. If you get enough belts, you should just move into getting the badges.

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    @Elrond

    As passionate as you are this system is extremely cruel to both the pride of the gym leader and gutting of the system. Will the badges of the gyms that were removed be meaningless if they're unoccupied and cut? I really dislike the idea of having us rotate between novice rank and 100% because that is also crazy. I would have to completely redesign my gym, train other mons, and em them properly. That is absolutely insane!

    The whole purpose of the beginner's league is to get the player off the ground and into the real urpg competitive scene, so having the Champion and E4 of the beginner's league is a little silly and pointless when you should be focusing on bigger fish to fry.

    If I had two lines ups that the challegner can chose from: one for beginners and the other for seasoned uprg'ers then it takes away the burden how having to go through all of this weeding out, shuffling, etc.

    Refining and weeding out gym leaders I believe is completely different topic, as well.
    Last edited by juliorain; 02-25-18 at 07:03 PM.




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    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xali View Post
    1. I would be okay with this... maybe? We can discuss this more.

    2. I dont like the idea of adding more people to the system. This is to maintained things as streamlined as possible.

    3. I’m gonna knock this one down before it even takes off. I don’t agree to this. You should strive to beat every obstacle in your way. You may not be able to swim against the current when you first get into the water, but thats why you improve your technique and keep practising.

    4. I, again, do not see the point of adding more people to the system. If you get enough belts, you should just move into getting the badges.
    I think I may have miscommunicated some things, as I'm not totally sure what all of these are responding to.

    First off, most of my ideas are geared toward seriously reducing the number of people in the gym system, with the exception of the one Novice League Champion. And I'm going to push back on that one, as I think the existence of a completion milestone is essential to the success of this kind of system.

    As for number three, I'm definitely certain I've miscommunicated something. My goal here is to at least re-introduce the gym roll call, and potentially formalize a new process by which prospective gym leaders can challenge current ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by juliorain View Post
    As passionate as you are this system is extremely cruel to both the pride of the gym leader and gutting of the system. Will the badges of the gyms that were removed be meaningless if they're unoccupied and cut? I really dislike the idea of having us rotate between novice rank and 100% because that is also crazy. I would have to completely redesign my gym, train other mons, and em them properly. That is absolutely insane!

    The whole purpose of the beginner's league is to get the player off the ground and into the real urpg competitive scene, so having the Champion and E4 of the beginner's league is a little silly and pointless when you should be focusing on bigger fish to fry.

    If I had two lines ups that the challegner can chose from: one for beginners and the other for seasoned uprg'ers then it takes away the burden how having to go through all of this weeding out, shuffling, etc.
    Once again I think I've miscommunicated here. My intent is not to rotate the Novice and Advanced leaders into the other league, but to get new leaders into the system on a more regular basis. I want gym leadership to be a position that is actively sought and consistently earned.

    I'm confused why you're arguing against the idea of the Champion and Elite Four for the Novice system, as I believe it was included in your original post! I'll repeat, however, that I believe having a milestone battle at the end of the Novice system is essential to enticing players to challenge it.

  12. #9
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    re: Elrond

    Let's take the opportunity to reduce the size of our gym system

    I'm down for lowering to 18, 20, something in that range. What concerns me is type availability, and which types would be within the 18/20. I think there should be the opportunity for people who want a type to be able to get that type in a timely manner, which is a problem for us already, although that's not to say we should suddenly allow 18 Flying gyms to become a possibility.

    Maybe have 18/20/etc gyms with free choice of type, but impose a limit of two or three per type across the total?

    Restrict difficulty by pruning gym leaders, rather than adding lots of extra rules

    Yesyesyes. We don't need more gimmicks on top of what is already monotype. I think we should have some percentage of the total gym system operate as the Beginner League, and I can think of two ways for this to be done: 1) volunteer basis, with gym leaders deciding for themselves whether they want to designate themselves as Beginner, or 2) LOs pick and choose, which puts pressure on them but might work better.

    Introduce gym rotation to keep things fresh and to reduce the impact of inactivity

    I like this as a very general idea, but I also sympathize with people who want to hold onto a type and chase records or just have a good time with their fave mons (I think this applies to Ash, Liam, Monbrey, FD currently among others?)

    But we should definitely have higher standards for what qualifies as an active Gym Leader, and do a better job of deciding who is really making themselves available for challenges as opposed to doing the bare minimum of being "contactable." One way to do this may be to track gym challenges, but this is only possible if we have some way of encouraging people to challenge higher-difficulty gyms (which, btw, is a desirable thing on its own because people like Ash NEVER get challenges). Revive URPG Times' old Battle Target system?

    To create an enticing milestone, let's introduce a Novice League Champion who players can challenge after beating the Novice league

    Hell yeah. This, I would be in favor of being a temporary position with term limits, because you can only get so good before moving on from the Beginner level.

    A more firm layout

    WHAT IF...
    -16-20 gyms, up to 2/3 of a type
    -50% are "Beginner," as determined by LOs
    -complete 100% of Beginner, defeat Beginner Champion to move on ("Beginner E4" seems extraneous)
    -complete 50-75% of "Advanced" to become eligible for E4
    ----shouldn't be 100%, because even I still can't beat Syn's gym lmao^
    -use gym challenges as a measurement for activity, implement some system to help out gyms that challenges are afraid of
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    As someone who participated in the Dojo system (and loved it BTW) I really like the core of this idea. It sounds to me like we're hung up on a couple things - how many gyms to have, and how to make it an easier challenge than a full gym.

    For the first - perhaps we would be best off having one gym of each type in the full League as it stands now, and a set of eight or ten gyms in the novice league (perhaps with more common types - no dragon or fairy, for example). I do agree that the novice challenge needs a 'capstone', which is easily represented by the successive champion model. Once someone is unseated as novice champion, they no longer get to participate in the Novice side of things.

    For the second - perhaps having a set list of Pokemon to choose from, separate from a normal Gym Leader lineup? Maybe make it so all Pokemon are rented and can't be taught any EMs, so there's still versatility but the powerful combos aren't available to them. And if someone makes it for six months (or longer perhaps) as a novice Gym Leader, they get to claim one of their rented Pokemon to own and move up to the normal league?
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