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Thread: *Beginner's* URPG League

  1. #11
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    I think EMs are necessary, and hopefully the lack of (battling) experience balances the level of play enough on its own, but realistically you miss out on a lot of important skills to learn if you don't have access to TMs like Protect, Substitute, Psych Up, Snatch, Thunder Wave, Toxic... or even basic coverage moves that are crucial to learning how to use a lot of common URPG mons. It would defeat the purpose of having a Beginner league if you can't learn how to use those moves in that environment.

    One example is learning to block status with Substitute.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    I think EMs are necessary, and hopefully the lack of (battling) experience balances the level of play enough on its own, but realistically you miss out on a lot of important skills to learn if you don't have access to TMs like Protect, Substitute, Psych Up, Snatch, Thunder Wave, Toxic... or even basic coverage moves that are crucial to learning how to use a lot of common URPG mons. It would defeat the purpose of having a Beginner league if you can't learn how to use those moves in that environment.

    One example is learning to block status with Substitute.
    When discussing this in ref chat we decided against using ems for a few reasons. I argued to allow for EMs to use because certain pokemon are essentialy useless (like garchomp) without specific ems, but then we figured that we're talking about challengers who haven't even had a chance to properly em their mons. I suggested a cap of 5 ems/mon, but even that seems like too much. If the challenges are 6 pokemon, 5 ems for each doesn't seem like too much for you, but for someone just starting that can be a serious and debilitating issue.


    Xali - Today at 5:26 PM
    If anything I would opt for neither leader nor challenger can use EMs(edited)
    Gray Nine - Today at 5:26 PM
    Without a full 15 Pokemon lineup, weather, or a wild card it's not that hard
    Ooh I like that idea Xali
    Gegnar + Mortimer | juliorain - Today at 5:27 PM
    I mean so many mons become u s e l e s s without access to ems
    Xali - Today at 5:27 PM
    but you get the hang of it
    Gray Nine - Today at 5:27 PM
    ^
    Xali - Today at 5:27 PM
    Which iirc is what the whole point of this was
    Gray Nine - Today at 5:27 PM
    It's not supposed to be a perfectly balanced game type
    It's for newbies to have a challenge they can reasonably overcome


    When I only had 6 pokemon, I cound only afford two or three ems/mon. Pokemon can learn substitute like greninja via level up anyway.




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  3. #13
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    I'm definitely against limiting anyone's ability to use EMs as a general rule, especially but not limited to the challenger. I very much do not think that EM-free battles serve any use as an on-ramp to the game. If a leader is too strong, that should be something the LOs can moderate on a case-by-case basis.

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    Cut gyms down to one of each type (sorry Xali i’m taking electric)

    Open novice league where eligibility is determined based on perceived battling ability (or experience) rather than how long they have been around

    The number and types of novice league leaders is flexible and varies depending on interest. If there are only 3 people interested in being Novice leaders (ie can’t be of eligibility for the “advanced league”) then they can choose a type as long as they own at least one Pokemon of the type and rent out their remaining lineup for a total of 6 Pokemon.

    Once one novice league type is selected, it can’t be selected by another leader until the original leaves BUT purge novice leaders every 3 months or so to prevent stagnation. If there is no further interest, then someone can reapply for their old novice league position as long as they are still eligible.

    Not sure how sustainable this model is but it’s the only real direction I think would really work.

    Alternatively, let’s split the Gyms into 6 month Summer and Winter Leagues. One Gym of each type, half of them available to battle for the first 6 months of the year, the other half the rest of the year. Winter season would be thematic, so Water, Ice, Steel, etc.

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    An idea I had, kinda fleshed out from the earlier post - what if each 'novice' gym had a pre-set lineup? The league organizers can have a sit-down and decide which six 'mons go in the Water novice gym, which TMs are required on them, for example. Perhaps even using a budget for the mons and TMs to keep them consistent between gym types. When a novice Gym leader steps up, they get that slate of Pokemon to rent with a quick primer on how to use them effectively - and then have a public post to serve the function of that cheerleader guy you see at all the gyms, that tells you the weakness or a basic strategy to help challengers to win.

    I worry that if we just let the 'novice' gym leaders have free rein on 'mons and TMs, it'll wind up no different than challenging a real gym. On the other hand, if someone like me is in charge of one, it's also not a great intro to competitive battling - for instance I don't know how you use Substitute to avoid status, so I might get steamrolled and then they are no better off to face a full-fledged gym.
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  9. #16
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    There's a lot of good discussion in here, and I think it would be helpful to narrow down to talk about a single topic at a time. I think, first, we should discuss the format and specifically, the size of the gym system after the change.

    My suggestion after hearing the discussion is that we follow this format:

    Novice League
    12 Gym Leaders
    1 Champion

    Advanced League
    12 Gym Leaders
    4 Elite Four members
    1 Champion

    There have been a few other suggestions, format-wise. For example, Syn suggested only one gym of each type. Others have suggested that we leave the gym system as-is with 36 leaders and add on the Novice League on top of that. Others have suggested that we leave the gym system as-is and have each current gym leader come up with an "easy" version of their lineup.

    So let's talk size and format first, and once we hash that out, we can talk about number of badges required, prizes, how to determine difficulty, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evanfardreamer View Post
    An idea I had, kinda fleshed out from the earlier post - what if each 'novice' gym had a pre-set lineup? The league organizers can have a sit-down and decide which six 'mons go in the Water novice gym, which TMs are required on them, for example. Perhaps even using a budget for the mons and TMs to keep them consistent between gym types. When a novice Gym leader steps up, they get that slate of Pokemon to rent with a quick primer on how to use them effectively - and then have a public post to serve the function of that cheerleader guy you see at all the gyms, that tells you the weakness or a basic strategy to help challengers to win.

    I worry that if we just let the 'novice' gym leaders have free rein on 'mons and TMs, it'll wind up no different than challenging a real gym. On the other hand, if someone like me is in charge of one, it's also not a great intro to competitive battling - for instance I don't know how you use Substitute to avoid status, so I might get steamrolled and then they are no better off to face a full-fledged gym.
    That has been one of the established talking points of our idea. Thank you. These novice league gyms are chiefly there to be unbalance and hinder more advanced players who would otherwise steam roll newbies so newbies can establish themselves.

    @Elrond youre suggesting a completely new gym system which is smaller. I think the implications of going to a leage 1/3 the size of the current will cause too much pain because that is a completely new system. Where will the current gyms go? Will I get kicked out just because the system says I need? My idea doesn't require a massive overhaul since each gym would have a second, small, and fixed lineup that the newb can learn to counter without the fear of being out-em'd.




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  11. #18
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrond View Post
    There's a lot of good discussion in here, and I think it would be helpful to narrow down to talk about a single topic at a time. I think, first, we should discuss the format and specifically, the size of the gym system after the change.

    My suggestion after hearing the discussion is that we follow this format:

    Novice League
    12 Gym Leaders
    1 Champion

    Advanced League
    12 Gym Leaders
    4 Elite Four members
    1 Champion

    There have been a few other suggestions, format-wise. For example, Syn suggested only one gym of each type. Others have suggested that we leave the gym system as-is with 36 leaders and add on the Novice League on top of that. Others have suggested that we leave the gym system as-is and have each current gym leader come up with an "easy" version of their lineup.

    So let's talk size and format first, and once we hash that out, we can talk about number of badges required, prizes, how to determine difficulty, etc.
    I like this. Going to suggest 8 Novice Leaders and 12 Advanced Leaders, because I think we currently have few members who are at the Novice level, and long-term, we will have many more at the Advanced level. It's less of a concern right now because you could just boot a lot of leaders out on activity, but down the line, there might be a numbers crunch on people who qualify for and want Advanced gyms, and number of available Advanced gyms.

    Part of this depends on whether you see Novice as a beginner level or an average level -- I imagine an average battler will be able to complete Novice and qualify for the Advanced level, so I think there should be more of the Advanced gyms. Novice should really be for people within their first year of URPG or so, which is (in my experience) where most of the growth curve occurs.
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  12. #19
    evanfardreamer's Avatar
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    Well, now I feel dumb - I hadn't even looked at the current gym setup because it apparently changed in 2013. According to the current info dex, we have 25ish people who are gym leaders. I do like a cap of no more than two of a type, and am not opposed but have concerns if we bring it below one gym per type.

    If less than one gym per type total -
    a) who picks what types they are, interested potential gym leaders or a league organizer?
    b) once gym types are selected, and one comes vacant - is it replaced by the same type? or is it open to pick again?
    c) would type overlap be allowed, or would it be no more than one per type?
    d) what do we do with the high number of gym leaders who would be displaced, that doesn't make them want to leave URPG?

    I do think we should consider the veteran and novice gyms separately for purposes of structure, even if there is leader overlap in some fashion. I liked Syn's idea above that the size of the novice league depends on interest, if only five people want to be novice gym leaders then we only have five, with no type overlap. Capping it at 12 feels good so it's not overly crazy on the novice LO. Then when a position opens up - or if the LO feels they need more people with novice gyms - they can set up a mini-tourney among interested people, maybe using the teams they would have if they were defending their proposed novice gym.
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  13. #20
    URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorAdministrator Elrond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juliorain View Post
    Elrond youre suggesting a completely new gym system which is smaller. I think the implications of going to a leage 1/3 the size of the current will cause too much pain because that is a completely new system. Where will the current gyms go? Will I get kicked out just because the system says I need? My idea doesn't require a massive overhaul since each gym would have a second, small, and fixed lineup that the newb can learn to counter without the fear of being out-em'd.
    tl;dr I think all this talk about booting and labeling is a knee-jerk reaction to a bridge we don't need to cross yet. Secondly, there are plenty of ways to solve these problems without making people feel bad.

    I touched on a couple of these points on Discord, but I'll reiterate them here so I can develop some more thoughts:

    First, I want to make sure we're talking about an accurate scope of reduction. My suggestion was to go down to 24 gyms total, which is only two fewer than the current number of filled gyms, not one-third.

    Secondly, having a discussion to come up with our ideal number of gyms does not require kicking anyone at all. At the very least, we'd be able to do the following before we had to kick anyone who still wanted to be a gym leader:
    1. Have a gym roll call, which would last about a month and result in the removal of only those few people who are so far removed from URPG that they don't respond despite various announcements and probably personal pings on Discord.
    2. Ask for volunteers to give up their gyms.
    3. If we ended up with a number of current leaders greater than the number we want to cut down to after those steps, we could simply begin the new system with a slightly higher number of leaders than we wanted, and simply not open up new slots when the first few people leave.

    Thirdly, there's been some concern about labeling folks as good or bad gym leaders. I think I'm being reasonable when I say that most gym leaders are already aware of where they'd fall in the rankings. The two people who raised their hand in the discussion on Discord should be proof enough of that. It's not an insult to suggest to someone that they would be more successful leading a gym in the Novice league. For the few who do care, unfortunately that kind of feel-bad is going to exist no matter what kind of gym system we end up with. Case in point: if we had enough members right now to fill all thirty-six gyms, some people wouldn't make the cut. In fact, some people already don't make the cut if they want a type that's filled by stronger leaders.

    A formal split between the Novice and Advanced leagues should actually be more freeing for less-experienced gym leaders, because they'd be facing less-experienced challengers, too.

    Unfortunately, the suggestion that all current leaders should just come up with an "easy" lineup doesn't work because, at the moment, we have a number of leaders for whom even more restrictions would make defending their gym nearly impossible.

    The other thing to remember is that the league would be called the Novice league primarily because it caters to novice challengers. That doesn't mean that we're labeling every leader in that league a "novice" too (although it would also be a fitting place for novice leaders).

    Finally, remember that once we do set up this system, new gym leaders would be applying for whichever league they think they fit into. If we kept the current leader challenge system in place for the Advanced league, for example, then they would have to beat an Advanced gym leader for that position. It's not a matter of us saying "how cute let's put you in the basic league"--the prospective leader would have to make that choice themselves and live with the possibility of not making the cut if they go for something above their current skill level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    I like this. Going to suggest 8 Novice Leaders and 12 Advanced Leaders, because I think we currently have few members who are at the Novice level, and long-term, we will have many more at the Advanced level. It's less of a concern right now because you could just boot a lot of leaders out on activity, but down the line, there might be a numbers crunch on people who qualify for and want Advanced gyms, and number of available Advanced gyms.

    Part of this depends on whether you see Novice as a beginner level or an average level -- I imagine an average battler will be able to complete Novice and qualify for the Advanced level, so I think there should be more of the Advanced gyms. Novice should really be for people within their first year of URPG or so, which is (in my experience) where most of the growth curve occurs.
    I could get behind having a smaller number of gym leaders in the Novice league.

    That being said, I don't view low activity as an obstacle to creating this kind of system. There are plenty of people currently in URPG who would qualify to challenge the Novice league (I only have four badges myself right now). If we start running out of new members, then that's a problem for URPG as a whole and we've got bigger fish to fry than the gym system.
    Last edited by Elrond; 02-27-18 at 04:49 PM.

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