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Thread: Monbrey's Position in URPG

  1. #21

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    URPG StaffAdministrator Ash K.'s Avatar
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    While I unfortunately can't add much to the WWC discussion as I only just became aware that there had been a problem, I would like to clarify one other point that has been brought up a few times here.

    And bending promises, like that one for transparency that we found a convenient reason around here. (Transparency/Trust)
    "Transparency" doesn't mean every single discussion will be done publicly. It's unreasonable to expect that every detail of certain discussions should be shared publicly, and I'd say that by far the most true for anything involving disciplinary action. If we were discussing whether or not to ban you (as a general "you" to whoever may be reading this, not calling out any specific person), would you want us to tell everyone we're deciding if we should ban you and if so, for how long? Would you really want every single piece of evidence against you made public? Certainly, you in particular deserve to know as much as can be shared without infringing on someone else's privacy and we've done our best (in recent cases, at least. I can't speak for all the age-old cases) to ensure that is provided. Publicly, we try to share as much as we can that doesn't infringe on anyone's privacy, including yours, which will therefore be a bit less than shared with you.

    For this case specifically, we tried as hard as possible to resolve it in record time, so that Monbrey would not be left in suspense and we could share the results with everyone. There were some logistical factors (outside of URPG) that unfortunately delayed it a lot more than we would have liked, but I'd say it was still a pretty quick resolution (which you may or may not agree with). Since it is disciplinary action, I do not believe it is something that should be shared before a decision is reached and the member themself has been informed, for the reasons I mentioned above.

    That said, are we perfect on transparency in other areas? Probably not. It's something we're working to improve on, but that doesn't mean we're instantly flawless.
    Ash K. on BMG/PXR/SPC, Alcadies on PE2K, MewAshMew on AIM.
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  2. #22
    King Stunfisk URPG Staff Mikey57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    ?_?

    y’all write some long posts lol

    Flaze’s SWC: had some potty words in it (it was his first time entering; he did not know the rules); it was brought to my attention -> it was brought to his attention; he was given time to edit and I’m pretty sure he did. I chose not to DQ him ‘cause it seemed fair. My apologies for not telling Mikey that I had followed up.

    My WWC: had some potty words in it (I take a solid L on that one; I have no excuse besides carelessness and will not pretend to offer one); it was brought to Smiles’s attention -> it was brought to my attention; I was given time to edit and I did. I missed a stray “shit”; it was brought to my attention; I edited again. I asked Smiles if I should withdraw and she said no; the only thing I edited were the potty words.

    To my knowledge the decision to let me stay was based in precedent and not on some shadowy hold I still have on the section, but if it makes you uncomfortable that I was allowed to enter, I will withdraw the story myself. I have no desire to cause any more issues for the community and submitted the story as one last hurrah for why we love playing games, but in some respects I agree that that sentiment was as highly unrealistic as the title of the story implies it was.
    I appreciate knowing that it was most likely edited after your call, thank you Ely.

    I don't have any issue with your story staying in the competition after all the editing; I believe you have the right to stay and not be forced to withdraw after the permissions given to compensate to make sure your story was legal. It is now a legal entry, that's what matters. Whether or not anyone else has a problem with it, I cannot say. That being said, please do stay unless you absolutely feel like you must withdraw. I encourage you don't, personally, your story is wonderful! But if you feel like you must, I cannot stop you.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    To my knowledge the decision to let me stay was based in precedent and not on some shadowy hold I still have on the section, but if it makes you uncomfortable that I was allowed to enter, I will withdraw the story myself. I have no desire to cause any more issues for the community and submitted the story as one last hurrah for why we love playing games, but in some respects I agree that that sentiment was as highly unrealistic as the title of the story implies it was.
    It was never a problem that you were allowed to enter. There's nothing that should stop you from doing so! You left of your own volition, you weren't banned-- so enter away.


    If someone is reading this like I have an issue with you entering-- and from the looks of it, many people do-- that's evidence of bias.
    I had an issue with you breaking rules, and not because I think it's a good rule (I don't, it's stupid), or because I don't like you (I do, you've been straight with me), or because cursing upsets me (it clearly fucking doesn't), but because Staff should be following rules.


    And the fact that it isn't is the problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    Would you really want every single piece of evidence against you made public? Certainly, you in particular deserve to know as much as can be shared without infringing on someone else's privacy and we've done our best
    Something something "right to a public trial."


    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    I'd say it was still a pretty quick resolution (which you may or may not agree with).
    'Course it was. Monbrey had it on his mind to leave anyway.


    Ralin,
    Spoiler:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    The Zoo is now a dead server
    Good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    Finally, you've got issues with URPG. Do something about them.
    What, like point out problems and offer solutions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    Don't tell everyone we need to fix something then not offer a solution.
    Sure, here's a solution: don't ostracize your most valuable player while breaking your players' trust at the same time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    After HKim, Monbrey, and Elysia, they're on thin ice.
    What is that supposed to mean? HKim's greatest crime was inaction. Monbrey's reformed from something that happened almost a decade ago. Elysia got into a fight with an influential bully. Who is on thin ice? You?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    URPG is working hard to rebuild. Help us with that. Adding more fire to the chaos is not gonna help.
    Sure. Want to give me a leadership position so I can start demonstrating how to behave? Or did you have something else in mind? 'Cause I'm not sure how you want me to help fix things any more than pointing out inconsistencies and betrayals, and offering solutions to them.


    No, seriously. How am I supposed to "fix" any of this? You want me to do more than whine? Promote me to staff-- then it'll be my job.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    example of adding fire: this. Publicly complaining about an issue that has been solved, but using it as an example of staff messing up. This doesn't help anyone!
    It's an example. It's an example that change hasn't been made, and that we've been getting lip service. It's an example that trust has been broken. Again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    For the record, I never did approve of the--
    Yeah, yeah. Nobody who was in it ever approved of it. You didn't approve of it. Seppe didn't approve of it. Your URPG Head didn't approve of it.


    But it still happened and you were all still there while it was happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    But, I would like to say that these people have since learned their lesson and understand that words hurt, and actions have consequences.
    Hey it's almost like someone else we know


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    Don't hold stuff against these players who were tied to this situation.
    I think this line turns you into a hypocrite.



    Liam offers the closest thing to a rational explanation, "...him getting promoted . . . lead to an inappropriate state of governance." Yeah! That's totally true. That's a huge problem that should have been addressed by Staff. Or in other words, they shouldn't have promoted him. Despite that, they did. And if anybody wanted to frame this as correcting that, that "Monbrey is good now, but he never should have been promoted in the first place," that would be fine. But you haven't. This is "punishment."


    I disagree with Liam's next line, too. Why shouldn't someone with that history hold power in URPG? He did for many years, and URPG was better for it. It clearly isn't-- and hasn't been-- a problem. It was so much not a problem that nobody had even realized it had happened until Adamantine.

    I don't see what this has to do with moving forward-- indeed, it really looks like sliding backward, especially with inconsistencies I've already pointed out and Monbrey generously and efficiently running a resource for URPG that you'll be hard pressed to replace and/or maintain, if any of the rest of URPG is any example. The fact that it doesn't benefit anybody to do (it doesn't defend Elysia or other victims; it doesn't punish Monbrey, who wanted to leave anyway, or deter his behavior or promote his reform; it doesn't solve any of the problems that plague URPG currently and introduces a lot more of them) doesn't inspire any confidence that this is the best way forward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Surfer Liam View Post
    I'm also a bit bothered by your statements on trusting staff, I understand Monbrey for some was a great person to go to for issues. . . But he wasn't the only staff member to empathize with you or reach out to you or let you know that we appreciate your (specifically your) opinions.
    Right. You "reached out" to me after I had been trolled in a chat I had to beg for, to tell me I shouldn't use "heated language" and patronize me about how I was "improving my behavior," and told me that next time I should walk away and DM a staff member. You gave me some BS about how right I was to be agitated and anybody would, and promised me how much staff really appreciated me, but in the end, nobody stepped in and stopped the trolling.

    You told me it was "a minor concern" and insisted, "trust me, we talked to them"


    Why should I trust you?

    Why should I trust Ralin, who is also in here with his kid gloves on?

    Why should I trust Swift who was in The Zoo during its heyday or who dismissed a case I brought to him and simply tried to placate me?

    Or Nitro, who is a proponent of "punishment for punishment's sake"?

    Or K'saria, who was apparently accessory to a whole handful of my own personal abuse?

    Why should I trust who I have had any interaction with on this level, except ironically Monbrey?

    Because in the end, that's what this is about. I'm well and truly depleted of trust for URPG. I've been out of trust since June. I don't trust staff to make good decisions, or to handle problems well, or to follow the rules they make, or to step in and help me-- let alone anybody else-- when I need it.

    I'll start trusting staff when I see staff being trustworthy. I'll start trusting staff when I see that URPG's policies have changed and staff is actually following them. Why should I lower my defenses for you, again?

    Spoiler:
    Want something more tangible? I'll trust staff again the next time I'm being bullied, and staff intervenes. If you're lucky, and URPG never has bullies again, then I'll never trust staff.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

  5. #24
    Now with Mega Evolution Staff AlumniURPG Staff swiftgallade46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    What I mean, swift, is that if you do things that "make URPG look good" despite having no benefit or progress... the people with the context to realize that (not the hypothetical outsider you described) see right through it.
    Just because you see no benefit or progress, doesn't mean there isn't any. You aren't "seeing right through" anything. You're still accusing me essentially of asking Monbrey to step down for the sole reason of "saving face." In other words, scapegoating him. If that's what you want to think, fine, but that isn't the case. You can't call everyone out on having bias and then ignore your own and expect everyone else to ignore it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Leaving Monbrey in a position of governance would have been pretty reassuring to someone like me, despite his past actions, because it's nice to have a member of staff who doesn't simply dismiss your issue.
    The world does not revolve around you, Truly. I make decisions for the greater good of URPG, not for the greater good of Truly. Monbrey was great at being a neutral presence, I agree. There are many other Staff members who are as well. K'Sariya has always been a great neutral presence and she had defended you before. That's just to name one. If you don't have faith in any of Staff to be this way, I can't force you to. I have apologized over and over again and, yes, I have started making strides to change some of our old habits. I have owned up to my faults. Where's the part where you do the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    To put it another way, When I came to other members of staff with a problem, it was ignored. That's the same concept Adamantine was written about, right?
    It's more than a bit upsetting that you are comparing yourself to someone who was sexually harassed. You aren't doing yourself or her any favors by doing so.

    Let me take a risk and be completely and 100% honest with you, Truly, about your situation as a member:
    It is extremely difficult for me personally to take a neutral stance with you. You have antagonized me endlessly. I have hours of DMs with you where I tried talking to you and understanding you and all you did was belittle me, and trivialize everything I said and did. I can't imagine there are not other people who feel this way too. If any further situations arise with you, I will leave it to K'Sariya or another Staff member I trust to be neutral with your position to handle. But when you antagonize people, demean them and their opinions, and belittle them then play the victim when they strike back it is very difficult to find sympathy for you even when there are areas in which you do deserve it. You refuse to take any responsibility ever for the way you make people feel and the way you choose to treat them. You begin arguments that you yourself acknowledge have no point or destination and then attack people who try to understand you. It's absolutely infuriating to think that you believe your situation as a victim (which, you are in some places) is on par with those of someone who faced sexual harassment in the past and was ignored. I'm sick of beating around the bush with this. You need to either accept responsibility for your part in the negativity that surrounds you, or stop playing the victim when people respond to negativity with negativity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    ???
    Case in point. What does this kind of response accomplish? You want to talk about pointlessness for the sake of pointlessness, well here it is. It's a good thing Nitro is so level-headed because I can't guarantee everyone would just ignore this kind of response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Staff is still bending rules for "favorites," as evidenced by letting Elysia's WWC submission through. (Favoritism/Cliques)
    And bending promises, like that one for transparency that we found a convenient reason around here. (Transparency/Trust)
    I don't have any recent examples of staff ignoring abuse, but I'll ask you this: is The Zoo still running? (Bullying/Enabling)
    Allowing Ely's WWC entry was my decision, too. I asked Smiles to have her edit the swears so that it would adhere to the rules, and this was done without question. This is not based on favoritism. It was based on the fact that I believed she had earned the right to enter this competition after years of doing so with a story that reflected on an experience that was extremely painful for her. Sometimes, enforcing minor rules without question is less important than the big picture. And I did enforce the rule anyway. Again, we will end this topic of conversation here. It is irrelevant to this thread.

    I'll address transparency later since you bring it up again.


    You don't have any recent examples of Staff ignoring abuse. Just going to reiterate that you said that and yet here we are. Ralin summarized the status of the Zoo nicely, and I've shared my thoughts on it extensively. I trust our members not to start trouble in there and to use it for fun (if it ever gets used again). I hope I have earned trust from them as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    So again I will assert that demoting Monbrey doesn't actually solve any problems or fix anything. It's ridiculous to frame this as a punishment. Instead, I'd like to see staff actually working on solving some of the problems that some of the players are having with URPG.
    Do you realize that you are not doing Monbrey any favors by continuously asserting how "pointless" this decision is? The fact that I have to keep reminding you that Monbrey was never punished in URPG for sexually harassing another member is painful for me, likely painful for him, and painful for people who love and respect who he is today.

    Staff are addressing many issues people have with URPG. I am fully willing to own up to our mistakes and take responsibility where needed. But if you choose to ignore the many areas in which things have changed in even just the past few months based on the feedback we have been given, that's on you. I can't do anything about that. Talk about me all you want, but I do NOT appreciate you belittling their efforts over the past weeks after all I've seen them do and go through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    @Monbrey, it's not arguing that you should have to stay-- like I said, you owe them nothing. I'm trying to point out the inanity... again. And I guess that's my problem. I shouldn't care either.
    As Ralin said, you can and should criticize us where it's right. We have many faults and we should be called out for them so we can fix them. What's "inane" is when you blindly stick to these criticisms while ignoring everything that is being done to address them. What's "inane" is that you think if we aren't making decisions that suit you, we also aren't making decisions for the good of URPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    ?????
    What on earth are you talking about? Who is being hard on Ely? What would she even ever be punished for? Who is "beating up" Ely for anything? Ever?
    Of course an inactive member can still submit to WWC. But Elysia's entry contained foul language, which is entirely banned in WWC.

    Remember how there is a problem in URPG with favoritism? How users we like can just slide in areas where users we don't, can't?
    I addressed this above already. Please cease with discussing WWC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    You know what would have shown actual change with regards to URPG policy and staff taking their jobs seriously? Not knocking Monbrey down a peg, but actually adhering to the rules URPG has set in place, and disqualifying Elysia's entry from WWC. Even though we like Elysia, even though it's hard and feels bad, but because that's the damn rule.
    Second verse same as the first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    You know what would have given me confidence that URPG was making necessary change to become wholesome, safe, and fun? Transparency when discussing whether or not to remove Monbrey from second in command. Remember how Swift told us there'd be transparency?

    This is a prime example of you willfully ignoring the change URPG has undergone and the direct addressing of member issues Staff has done. As Ash summarized very well, not everything can be transparent. Not everything will be transparent. Not everything should be transparent. I said that from the get go. I didnt even owe you an explanation as to why this wasn't, but I gave you a very long one anyway. And you ignored it in favor of blindly criticizing myself and Staff. That's on you, again. It's easy to look at something and shout "INVALID!" It's a lot harder to understand another person's perspective. I tried to make it easier by laying it out for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Nitro, I don't want another apology from Swift. I want staff to start being trustworthy.
    This isn't entirely up to Staff. If you don't want to trust us, we can't force you to. I'm not asking you to do it blindly, but for goodness sake stop ignoring everything we have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Yes. A punishment should be given out for some reason with some outcome in mind. Usually it's to protect victims or potential victims, and to reform the offender. You don't just punish people for no reason or for no gain. It doesn't have "to solve everything," but there should be some point to it.
    I find it, again, infuriating to hear that you think we are making this decision for no reason and for no gain. How many times do I have to reiterate how much we love and appreciate Monbrey? How difficult this decision was for us? Why in the world would we decide to demote him for no reason? If you dont like our reasons, fine. But don't tell me there weren't any.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    What's the point here, that Monbrey has gone unpunished? Monbrey has matured and the situation resolved itselfdespite URPG. The groups banning Monbrey now are being silly-- but maybe they don't have the full context. URPG does. But URPG too has followed them in the decision to depose their voice of reason and most-useful member, despite understanding that the Victim is long gone, and the Criminal has already reformed. Again, again, there is no good reason to "punish" Monbrey here.
    Sexual harassment is not silly. Sexual harassment is not something that goes away. This isn't all about Monbrey and his feelings. No matter how much we appreciate the amazing person he is now, we can't ignore how other people feel about his position. That's wrong. You may feel differently. We felt differently, too. But we needed to put our biases aside. Not being Staff, you have the luxury of not needing to do so. That doesn't mean you shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    I can offer you a more fitting reaction to PXR banning Monbrey, though. URPG could recognize and address the shit that happened around him in the past, put their confidence behind the best person in the place, and say "Hey, we acknowledge Monbrey fucked up but it was years ago and it isn't relevant anymore. He isn't that person anymore, and in the future, Staff Will Actually Do Its Job."
    We did that, but we had to question this decision. As I said, we have to look at this from other perspectives. Recognizing and condemning his actions is pretty damn hard to do while also leaving him as Second in Command. Stop making me have to reiterate this. I'm sick of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    No, man, no. Not everything "has to solve everything" But if URPG wants to get better and move forward, it should be owning its problems and solving them. This isn't one. It's really hard to see this thread happen at all because this isn't a problem. Just "a punishment for punishment sake" to save face publicly while no actual change in behavior or policy is made.
    It's horrific to think that you believe this is just punishment for punishment's sake. It's equally disturbing that you feel sexual harassment is a non-issue even years later and should not play into decisions made today. Maybe you can dismiss this so easily, not everyone can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Not everything "has to solve everything" but ignoring the problems that do need to be solved and trying to get by by throwing someone under the bus-- and Monbrey, of all people-- is really infuriating.
    I'm not going to continue to defend why I am not scapegoating Monbrey and throwing him under the bus. It is becoming increasingly difficult to so when you keep forcing me to reiterate the actions he took that prompted us to take this stance in the first place. I can't force you to believe me when I say how much I respect and appreciate Monbrey. How grateful I am to have met him and have him as a friend. How genuinely sad it makes me to have to enforce this rule upon him. He told me himself that he believes me. That's good enough for me. I don't need to keep justifying it to you, Truly.

    EDIT: And by the way I was never in the Zoo server, thanks for making false assumptions and developing opinions of me based on falsehoods that you never even bothered to research.
    Last edited by swiftgallade46; 01-29-18 at 11:40 AM.
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  6. #25
    Sleepyhead URPG Staff Jack's Avatar
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    Sigh. Okay, we are gonna get into this then.

    What is that supposed to mean? HKim's greatest crime was inaction. Monbrey's reformed from something that happened almost a decade ago. Elysia got into a fight with an influential bully. Who is on thin ice? You?


    you are the one who expressed distrust. Not me. Inaction is just as bad as being a problem when you are a leader. I didn't agree with monbrey's removal of power. Apologies if I expressed that. Elysia did take on a bully, my explanation was from the perspective of other. I have no problems with the three of them.

    Now. Why are you pointing the finger at me? It's fine, but it feels needlessly hostile.

    Sure. Want to give me a leadership position so I can start demonstrating how to behave? Or did you have something else in mind? 'Cause I'm not sure how you want me to help fix things any more than pointing out inconsistencies and betrayals, and offering solutions to them.


    So first off, I forgot to add. I liked your feedback for the Story Section and future competitions and their rules.

    Anyways, you don't need a staff position to make a difference. You point out inconsistencies but it seems the usual habit is "heres a problem, fix it." But, recently, I will admit that you have done a far better job with constructive criticism. A while back you were very antagonistic towards ideas and never seemed to offer solutions. So I guess me stating this was a bit rude of me and I apologize. You have been putting work in.

    t's an example. It's an example that change hasn't been made, and that we've been getting lip service. It's an example that trust has been broken. Again.


    Lip service how? This example is sound. You wanna know the changes? Zoo servers dead. I now have 5 separate friend groups because of the blow up of Onmyo. That's just me playing Victim though.

    I will not deny the breaking of trust. It has happened again. I myself wish they were more vocal about the situation with Monbrey, but I understand why they were not.

    This is situational, but they took action on their mistakes (the zoo drama) and fixed them. How have they not? If you're referring to adamantine and staff's complacency, that's fair. I can't defend that.

    But it still happened and you were all still there while it was happening.


    Don't be rude about it, please. I tried for months to get them to stop the toxic behaviour. It isn't fun to see friends turn to assholes when it comes to a very specific topic (URPG) It was an unhealthy dynamic that was hard to leave; Your friends are your friends, and it sucks that they're fine but when you bring up one specific thing and they fly off the handle. Makes it hard to cast real judgement on them.

    I know in confidence I took action. For me to say more on this involves revealing bullying and taking a chance on people witch hunting. I do not want to do that without discussing with staff first.


    Don't hold stuff against these players who were tied to this situation.


    I'm sorry if I came off hypocritical and that I was looking down upon you. This whole situation is awful and hard and my friendships have been turned upside down due to it. Doesn't excuse it, but to give you some insight as to my reasons.

    But to end this. Don't antagonize. Whether you realize
    it or not, you do it. You could have phrased a LOT of the things towards me in a much more constructive way that doesn't come off like a "counterattack." We are here to discuss, not point fingers.

    So, sorry if I pointed the finger at you as well.
    I'm sorry I was unable to really stop the bullying. I am one person and can only do so much. Maybe I am a hypocritical, I like to grow as a personc so feedback on me is welcome haha.
    "Take Care of Yourself"



  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftgallade46 View Post
    It's horrific to think that you believe this is just punishment for punishment's sake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    sexual harassment is something deserving of punishment for punishment's sake.


    I compare myself to someone who has been sexually harassed because those are the two references I have: my own, and that of someone who has been sexually harassed. If I had more to draw from, I would.

    I and everybody else voting in WWC read Elysia's story with the swearing in. I never even knew it had been editted, and even though it has, we've all read it with the swearing in, so any potential damage that the rule was meant to prevent has already been done. It's good that you guys had her edit it afterwards. It was still entered in a way that broke a rule.

    You're right that you never promised transparency. You only said there would be more transparency regarding bans. So I suppose that's a moot point of mine. Can I make a request for more transparency in other areas, too?

    This isn't about Monbrey and his feelings, but it's also apparently not about the victim and her feelings. Your reasons, as far as I can find them, are that some people are upset about it. Is that an accurate assessment? I keep saying "for no reason" and "for no gain" because I'm still missing the part where this benefits URPG instead of gutting it.


    I'm sorry that it was a hard decision to make, but for all of the bias you've shed, maybe the people who are uncomfortable with Monbrey should put their biases on hold, too.
    When you have people like Nitro who are saying it "deserves punishment for punishment's sake," Liam agreeing that it doesn't right the wrong, Fabled saying it doesn't need to have any point-- it makes it hard for me to understand why you'd do it, why there's any reason for it. At the very least, it should give you pause that the rest of your staff believes it's just simply because it's what must be done.

    Why is it hard to stand by someone who has done something reprehensible, when you, they, and their victim have all come to terms with and forgiven that person for it? When it's years in the past and remorse and reform have happened, despite no formal punishment? When the dark secret has been aired and acknowledged, why is it hard to take the formal stance that "We don't condone this," but "the person is now an upstanding part of the community?" It seems really easy to me.
    But apparently not. I'm sorry that I don't understand.

    And then, why did you have to question your decision? You've told us no new information came to light. From my perspective, the only change was that PXR has also banned Monbrey.


    If you want to get into this, I too have our DMs.
    And I've written out everything you've said that I've trivialized-- what it boils down to is this: when you told me to come to a staff member for help, I told you it was garbage.
    There's more-- maybe four or five conversations we've had, but there's a lot of treading of the same ground. When I came to a staff member for help with an incident that had gone on over the course of a couple of days, you told me it wasn't malicious. You always did. Because there was no rule explicitly being broken, I was to assume the people antagonizing me had the best intentions, and you were confused as to what I expected you to do.

    But we're so far off topic now. I don't know why I'm bothering in the first place.

    [Edit]
    Hi Swift! I missed this the first time. Sorry if you weren't on the Zoo server. I thought I had read it in one of the many many threads talking about all this. I'll skim through and see if I can find it. When I mentioned this earlier-- like much earlier, in another thread or the discord, maybe-- nobody corrected me.
    Last edited by Truly; 01-29-18 at 01:18 PM.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    I'm sorry if I came off hypocritical and that I was looking down upon you. This whole situation is awful and hard and my friendships have been turned upside down due to it. Doesn't excuse it, but to give you some insight as to my reasons.

    No! It comes off as hypocritical because on one foot you say "hey forgive these shitty people, don't hold it against them," and on the other you're saying "yeah but Monbrey deserves punishment for punishment's sake." I'm losing my mind that you don't see this


    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    you are the one who expressed distrust.
    then why are you the one saying "whoa, we're on thin ice!" That's you saying staff is on thin ice. Not me. Don't try to explain from someone else's perspective, you are bound to get it wrong. Try instead explaining from yours.

    I don't need more of your praise or sugar-coating or telling me how I should feel or how right I am, "but..." I have no use for any of that

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralin View Post
    You wanna know the changes? Zoo servers dead.
    Is this some change that staff made? Sounded like side-servers are a go. What did staff do to kill the Zoo? As far as I know, it died when Seppe left and Wier was banned, and the people there split into your five friend groups. Not because staff shut it down.

    You pick your friends.


    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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    This is my last response. This could go on for too long. And not to sound like a jerk but this is a bit pointless now.

    No! It comes off as hypocritical because on one foot you say "hey forgive these shitty people, don't hold it against them," and on the other you're saying "yeah but Monbrey deserves punishment for punishment's sake." I'm losing my mind that you don't see this
    Thanks for clarifying to be honest.

    Forgive people for what they have done, but remember their actions. My point was, I can see why Monbrey got the punishment. You can disagree with something but still understand something. Sorry if this comes off rude, best way for me to phrase it.

    I can see that others deem this as a worthy punishment and understand why. The reason I disagree with it is because personally, public shaming is enough of a punishment, especially for something he did when he was far younger. Some thought more was necessary, and that's 100% fair. Also to add on, Monbrey said he was fine with what happened.

    then why are you the one saying "whoa, we're on thin ice!" That's you saying staff is on thin ice. Not me. Don't try to explain from someone else's perspective, you are bound to get it wrong. Try instead explaining from yours.

    I don't need more of your praise or sugar-coating or telling me how I should feel or how right I am, "but..." I have no use for any of that
    Firstly, I was being sincere with the praise. Sorry about that. i'm sorry if I told you how to feel, but that's more of a personal issue rather than a state of URPG and their staff. For the record, I did not mean to if I did. I was telling you that you were right in some regards as to make sure you understood that I myself don't see you as I originally phrased you, someone who complains but gives no advice as to how to move forward. I used the stories section as an example, or proof, that you have done a good job of this, and it will benefit a section.

    Alright. Here's my perspective.

    Staff with many people is on thin-ice due to Adamantine, BMG, and maybe this? Trust is questioned, I personally don't have any issues with staff, but I've heard some do, including you. Who have stated as such.

    Continue this in DMs. Or take it to Trainer's Court. If it's worth discussing with staff.


    EDIT; I'm sorry for derailing the thread so much.
    "Take Care of Yourself"



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    but to be honest, it doesn't even matter. strike all that (regarding the Zoo server) from my argument, sorry to have assumed something.
    I'm not the only person who has been affected and I don't mean to make this all about me. Like I said, I can only argue from my own experience. Its not even really about Monbrey or Elysia. It's about URPG.

    The recent discrepancy with Elysia's WWC entry has been handled, albeit too late. You've dealt with it.
    My belief that you had promised us more transparency was an incorrect one, that was only regarding bans.
    The Zoo server is dead, and you were apparently not involved in it, as I had believed.

    "Moving forward," the only thing that will tell if URPG has improved or changed is to see how it handles these issues in the future. I don't have more examples of issues or how URPG has handled them under your leadership. It hasn't been long.Time will tell.

    I think this is a poor choice with no benefit that goes back on what has been said previously. I am exhausted and out of indignation. Good luck.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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    There is way too much hostility going on in this thread, to our collective detriment and discredit.

    This situation sucks. All of it sucks, going all the way back to November. Taking over InfoHub is actually the least stressful thing on my mind right now. We're at a point where we may literally be watching the end of URPG, my own willingness to host the site be damned. If any of y'all want there to be a URPG to fix--and I won't blame you if you don't--it's time to bury your various hatchets or take a step back and let cooler heads prevail until the train is back on track.

    The actions that were taken against Monbrey by URPG Staff are both fitting and necessary. Both. It sucks, but it's true, and the unbiased opinions of both the BMG and PXR administrations should be proof enough.

    For what it's worth, Truly, I am sorry to hear that you don't feel you will have a neutral advocate in Staff any more. I won't promise to fill that role, as we've had heated words before and it feels like it would be empty and patronizing.

    That being said, I respect you. You're still here, despite the shit you've been through.

    I want to invite you and everyone else in this thread to take a day and think real long and hard (phrasing) about how you want to move forward from this situation.

    "Crisis" doesn't mean "disaster." It means "turning point." Some players' roles in URPG have changed already, for better or worse--and with respect to those players, what's done is done. The rest of us have an opportunity to change our paths, too.

    Please, let's not fuck it up again.

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