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Thread: Monbrey's Position in URPG

  1. #11
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    I mean, this is a good thing. Swift is apologizing and eating shit where he should. We'll see how much Staff as a collective has learned from this -- at the end of the day, this all comes down to the decisions made by the people in charge, regardless of what kind of committees or frameworks are in place to organize decision-making -- but there definitely have been shake-ups and changes, and it looks like things are at least heading in the right direction. I hope it sticks.

    When I was in Staff, I felt like I should've been defensive, or at least less critical of other Staff members, in public to present a united front or whatever. Can't say if anyone else felt that way, but for me at least, being defensive kinda just came with being in charge. Hard to have a contrary outside opinion without being an actual outsider. But yeah, Swift is doing a solid job of owning that, and the listening / apologizing / transparency is going to be a big part of it. I've seen URPG try to save face and this isn't the same.
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  3. #12
    URPG Demoderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    As much as I appreciate the sentiment, I sincerely hope nobody is looking to defend me. Leaving Staff was something I wanted to do too. Having my hand forced honestly made it a lot easier for me because I was struggling with the decision.

    The game and the Staff team is definitely moving in a new direction. I probably would have wanted to fight to stay if I liked the direction it was taking, but I don't believe there's any room for personalities like mine here anymore.

    I genuinely wish them the very best, but I wanted no further part in running this game, so please don't argue that I should have to.

  4. #13
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    What I mean, swift, is that if you do things that "make URPG look good" despite having no benefit or progress... the people with the context to realize that (not the hypothetical outsider you described) see right through it.

    Leaving Monbrey in a position of governance would have been pretty reassuring to someone like me, despite his past actions, because it's nice to have a member of staff who doesn't simply dismiss your issue.

    To put it another way, When I came to other members of staff with a problem, it was ignored. That's the same concept Adamantine was written about, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    I mean, this is a good thing. Swift is apologizing and eating shit where he should.
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    it looks like things are at least heading in the right direction.
    Do you want to point out one thing that makes you think that's the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    We'll see how much Staff as a collective has learned from this -- at the end of the day, this all comes down to the decisions made by the people in charge
    Staff is still bending rules for "favorites," as evidenced by letting Elysia's WWC submission through. (Favoritism/Cliques)
    And bending promises, like that one for transparency that we found a convenient reason around here. (Transparency/Trust)
    I don't have any recent examples of staff ignoring abuse, but I'll ask you this: is The Zoo still running? (Bullying/Enabling)


    So again I will assert that demoting Monbrey doesn't actually solve any problems or fix anything. It's ridiculous to frame this as a punishment. Instead, I'd like to see staff actually working on solving some of the problems that some of the players are having with URPG.

    @Monbrey, it's not arguing that you should have to stay-- like I said, you owe them nothing. I'm trying to point out the inanity... again. And I guess that's my problem. I shouldn't care either.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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  6. #14

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    I don't really have anything to contribute but if this is the decision, so be it. It's a lose-lose situation, either way there is an outcome that we won't like.

    He was left as is after all of the drama and there were people saying he should have been punished for past behaviour that went un-accounted for, and that his promotions on the back of sexual harrassment were in-appropriate. On top of that, it was said that our 2IC being un-punished for serious transgressions sets a bad culture of staff favouritism and unfair treatment.

    He is removed from staff and then there is the issue that Monbrey's actions within recent times don't deserve punishment and that he has reformed, which I believe is true. There is also the issue that Monbrey has done more for us than almost anyone else has, and committed so much through funding the website etc.

    In the end, there is no perfect decision. I can hope that staff will continue to do what they feel is the most appropriate for URPG, and that everyone will continue to voice your opinions and dedicate your passion to this community. Judge the staff's actions at face value, and speak your mind.

    Truly, the only thing I feel I need to say to you is that not everything HAS to solve everything, or even something. This decision doesn't HAVE to be made in order to DO something, save face, enact punishment, or some other reason. By all means, if you feel that there is an issue with favouritism then bring it up. Not sure if the WWC thing is something relevant to this conversation, maybe something like anonymous feedback is a good place for it.

    Monbrey, I wish you the very best in everything. It's been a pleasure playing URPG and other shit with you, and a pleasure having you in charge. You know how to reach me on Discord if you ever want to. Cheers man o/
    Last edited by Fabled; 01-29-18 at 01:17 AM.

  7. #15
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    What I mean, swift, is that if you do things that "make URPG look good" despite having no benefit or progress... the people with the context to realize that (not the hypothetical outsider you described) see right through it.

    Leaving Monbrey in a position of governance would have been pretty reassuring to someone like me, despite his past actions, because it's nice to have a member of staff who doesn't simply dismiss your issue.

    To put it another way, When I came to other members of staff with a problem, it was ignored. That's the same concept Adamantine was written about, right?
    ???


    Do you want to point out one thing that makes you think that's the case?



    Staff is still bending rules for "favorites," as evidenced by letting Elysia's WWC submission through. (Favoritism/Cliques)
    And bending promises, like that one for transparency that we found a convenient reason around here. (Transparency/Trust)
    I don't have any recent examples of staff ignoring abuse, but I'll ask you this: is The Zoo still running? (Bullying/Enabling)


    So again I will assert that demoting Monbrey doesn't actually solve any problems or fix anything. It's ridiculous to frame this as a punishment. Instead, I'd like to see staff actually working on solving some of the problems that some of the players are having with URPG.

    @Monbrey, it's not arguing that you should have to stay-- like I said, you owe them nothing. I'm trying to point out the inanity... again. And I guess that's my problem. I shouldn't care either.
    If anything, I think people are still being too hard on Ely. She stepped down from Staff like I did, and then went on to call out URPG's pattern of leadership problems which culminated in thorough leadership change. It all proved her right. And I guess for what it matters, she wasn't formally punished and any inactive member can still submit towards WWC.

    The concern I have with Staff still is that I don't trust every single person there to actually make the right calls in the future, which seems to be your concern too. I discussed it privately in some detail before I stepped down, and I'll probably continue to nag them about publicly when I feel like I should. I like to think that people think I have my head on straight, but history shows Ely saw things with the most clarity of anyone and I guess she's still getting beat up for it, so who knows.

    But Swift isn't trying to hide or protect our old leaders, and it gives me faith that he won't try to hide or protect any bad ones if they need a shakedown. Honestly, *I* used to think Swift was too hard on people, so I'm pretty confident now that he won't be afraid to be an asshole when it's what's needed. An openly self-critical leadership group is probably what solves the problem that people have had.

    I mean, I'm not a member of Staff anymore, and I feel very free to be critical of them, but it's pretty wrong to say that nothing good has happened when someone in a position of power is being held accountable, or when the rest are willing to talk about it.

    Like, look at this:

    Quote Originally Posted by swiftgallade46
    You're both correct, and I apologize for that. Yes, the decision is partly based on the fact that Monbrey never faced a consequence in URPG for sexually harassing another member. I'm not afraid to use that terminology, and I'm sorry if the fact that I haven't until now detracts from the severity of it. It wasn't really a conscious decision not to do so, I guess. Like you said, Nitro, I guess I just firgured most of us knew what I was referring to anyway.
    I guess to be clear, I don't think you were dismissed. I think you're mostly just wrong, and I'm really not trying to be rude about it, because like Swift, I decided to take some time to talk about it.
    Last edited by Nitro; 01-29-18 at 02:27 AM.
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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    If anything, I think people are still being too hard on Ely. She stepped down from Staff like I did, and then went on to call out URPG's pattern of leadership problems which culminated in thorough leadership change. It all proved her right. And I guess for what it matters, she wasn't formally punished and any inactive member can still submit towards WWC.
    ?????
    What on earth are you talking about? Who is being hard on Ely? What would she even ever be punished for? Who is "beating up" Ely for anything? Ever?
    Of course an inactive member can still submit to WWC. But Elysia's entry contained foul language, which is entirely banned in WWC.

    Remember how there is a problem in URPG with favoritism? How users we like can just slide in areas where users we don't, can't?

    You know what would have shown actual change with regards to URPG policy and staff taking their jobs seriously? Not knocking Monbrey down a peg, but actually adhering to the rules URPG has set in place, and disqualifying Elysia's entry from WWC. Even though we like Elysia, even though it's hard and feels bad, but because that's the damn rule.
    You know what would have given me confidence that URPG was making necessary change to become wholesome, safe, and fun? Transparency when discussing whether or not to remove Monbrey from second in command. Remember how Swift told us there'd be transparency?


    Nitro, I don't want another apology from Swift. I want staff to start being trustworthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabled View Post
    Truly, the only thing I feel I need to say to you is that not everything HAS to solve everything, or even something. This decision doesn't HAVE to be made in order to DO something, save face, enact punishment, or some other reason.
    Yes. A punishment should be given out for some reason with some outcome in mind. Usually it's to protect victims or potential victims, and to reform the offender. You don't just punish people for no reason or for no gain. It doesn't have "to solve everything," but there should be some point to it.

    What's the point here, that Monbrey has gone unpunished? Monbrey has matured and the situation resolved itselfdespite URPG. The groups banning Monbrey now are being silly-- but maybe they don't have the full context. URPG does. But URPG too has followed them in the decision to depose their voice of reason and most-useful member, despite understanding that the Victim is long gone, and the Criminal has already reformed. Again, again, there is no good reason to "punish" Monbrey here.

    I can offer you a more fitting reaction to PXR banning Monbrey, though. URPG could recognize and address the shit that happened around him in the past, put their confidence behind the best person in the place, and say "Hey, we acknowledge Monbrey fucked up but it was years ago and it isn't relevant anymore. He isn't that person anymore, and in the future, Staff Will Actually Do Its Job."

    No, man, no. Not everything "has to solve everything" But if URPG wants to get better and move forward, it should be owning its problems and solving them. This isn't one. It's really hard to see this thread happen at all because this isn't a problem. Just "a punishment for punishment sake" to save face publicly while no actual change in behavior or policy is made.

    Not everything "has to solve everything" but ignoring the problems that do need to be solved and trying to get by by throwing someone under the bus-- and Monbrey, of all people-- is really infuriating.
    Last edited by Truly; 01-29-18 at 06:09 AM.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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  10. #17
    Ocean Dweller Administrator Surfer Liam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    ?????
    What on earth are you talking about? Who is being hard on Ely? What would she even ever be punished for? Who is "beating up" Ely for anything? Ever?
    Of course an inactive member can still submit to WWC. But Elysia's entry contained foul language, which is entirely banned in WWC.

    Remember how there is a problem in URPG with favoritism? How users we like can just slide in areas where users we don't, can't?

    You know what would have shown actual change with regards to URPG policy and staff taking their jobs seriously? Not knocking Monbrey down a peg, but actually adhering to the rules URPG has set in place, and disqualifying Elysia's entry from WWC. Even though we like Elysia, even though it's hard and feels bad, but because that's the damn rule.
    You know what would have given me confidence that URPG was making necessary change to become wholesome, safe, and fun? Transparency when discussing whether or not to remove Monbrey from second in command. Remember how Swift told us there'd be transparency?
    I believe what Nitro meant more by his statement is the underlying sentiment that because Ely made her Adamantine post and it was reported and became a reason (not the only one however) that BMG nuked URPG as well as her leaving staff and URPG, she should not be able to contribute to URPG, like: write a story, enter it in a contest, or give gifts at a gift station, etc. I don't hold that sentiment, and I don't think a lot of people do, but we (including Ely herself) have been met with that and it's infuriating if nothing else because Ely is still a member and can do as she pleases. Your comments rang that sentiment's bell, so that's where I think Nits came from. Sorry if I'm speaking for other people or out of my ass.

    But now to continue doing so, it really isn't a rule enforced by Staff to enter a story in a contest with profanity. That's up to Story Section staff, which sure Staff can oversee, but the rule was enacted (iirc) so if people saw an event, they wouldn't be intimidated or felt uncomfortable by the profane language or rated R-ness of the story which could eventually be archived if it wins. Ely's story wasn't really profane in that sense, nor was it inappropriate even though it had some profane language, and maybe that's why it got a pass, maybe the bias was a part of it, I don't know. Again, kind of talking for other people and out my ass so.


    Nitro, I don't want another apology from Swift. I want staff to start being trustworthy.


    Yes. A punishment should be given out for some reason with some outcome in mind. Usually it's to protect victims or potential victims, and to reform the offender. You don't just punish people for no reason or for no gain. It doesn't have "to solve everything," but there should be some point to it.

    What's the point here, that Monbrey has gone unpunished? Monbrey has matured and the situation resolved itselfdespite URPG. The groups banning Monbrey now are being silly-- but maybe they don't have the full context. URPG does. But URPG too has followed them in the decision to depose their voice of reason and most-useful member, despite understanding that the Victim is long gone, and the Criminal has already reformed. Again, again, there is no good reason to "punish" Monbrey here.

    I can offer you a more fitting reaction to PXR banning Monbrey, though. URPG could recognize and address the shit that happened around him in the past, put their confidence behind the best person in the place, and say "Hey, we acknowledge Monbrey fucked up but it was years ago and it isn't relevant anymore. He isn't that person anymore, and in the future, Staff Will Actually Do Its Job."

    No, man, no. Not everything "has to solve everything" But if URPG wants to get better and move forward, it should be owning its problems and solving them. This isn't one. It's really hard to see this thread happen at all because this isn't a problem. Just "a punishment for punishment sake" to save face publicly while no actual change in behavior or policy is made.

    Not everything "has to solve everything" but ignoring the problems that do need to be solved and trying to get by by throwing someone under the bus-- and Monbrey, of all people-- is really infuriating.
    So I had asked Monbrey to step down weeks ago in #Staff soon after Adamantine and BMG nuked URPG. My reason for it was because I felt him getting promoted soon after his sexual harassment charges along with no other ramifications lead to an inappropriate state of governance. Someone with that history with other issues should not hold power over anyone in our community, even if I believe that person is a good guy, am friends with, or has changed over the years. This sentiment was eventually felt by the rest of staff and we made a decision. I think you're letting your own bias get the best of you, which is reasonable and understandable, but please don't believe this solves everything or a lot other than it's just the right thing to do moving forward. This isn't scapegoating, this isn't solving everything, this isn't righting a wrong from many a year ago, it's doing what's right for our community and any potential future community member.

    I'm also a bit bothered by your statements on trusting staff, I understand Monbrey for some was a great person to go to for issues-- he is a good hearted person in my opinion, so I understand that completely. But he wasn't the only staff member to empathize with you or reach out to you or let you know that we appreciate your (specifically your) opinions. I hope you can understand that this was needed for our community to continue forward in the right direction, and if not, then I apologize but this is what the majority felt was needed.

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  12. #18
    Sleepyhead URPG Staff Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post

    Staff is still bending rules for "favorites," as evidenced by letting Elysia's WWC submission through. (Favoritism/Cliques)
    And bending promises, like that one for transparency that we found a convenient reason around here. (Transparency/Trust)
    I don't have any recent examples of staff ignoring abuse, but I'll ask you this: is The Zoo still running? (Bullying/Enabling)


    So again I will assert that demoting Monbrey doesn't actually solve any problems or fix anything. It's ridiculous to frame this as a punishment. Instead, I'd like to see staff actually working on solving some of the problems that some of the players are having with URPG.
    Hi! Stepping in here. Sorry if this is problematic or continuing a problem that should end.

    Elysia's story was considered fine, and maybe it was a bit of bias due to the circumstances. But, to give you some idea of the backlash she got. Many players have negative perceptions of Elysia due to the drama involving her. So, Smiles figured why not let her post it? I wasn't around in the moment people had complaints regarding her story, Smiles and I both talked with people involving this issue. Because the players who had concern were right; her story was technically against the rules due to language. But due to this concern, we have since looked into Elysia's story and Writing Competitions as a whole and have discussed how to move forward in a way that everyone gets equal treatment. I cannot speak for Smiles on the matter of Elysia's story, but I can talk for the section.

    Now. "The Zoo."

    Staff knows of who they are, so i'll come out and publicly say it I guess. I own the Zoo now, after Seppe's departure. The Zoo is now a dead server due to everything that happened. I advise you to read Swift's announcement of taking over as Head though. He states what happens there. The toxic behaviour from these people has 100% ceased. If it IS continuing, it is not to my knowledge. Again though, this has been stated by Swift. Before you claim there is an issue, read up on it. If you want to know more regarding the Zoo DM me.

    Finally, you've got issues with URPG. Do something about them. Don't tell everyone we need to fix something then not offer a solution. Does that mean you're wrong? Hell no. You should be allowed to question staff and their motives. After HKim, Monbrey, and Elysia, they're on thin ice. Do I feel this way? Eh, not really. I trust Swift, he's a pretty cool dude. But you don't trust them, so we're going off of that. (To be clear, your distrust is 100% valid and understandable.) URPG is working hard to rebuild. Help us with that. Adding more fire to the chaos is not gonna help.

    example of adding fire: this. Publicly complaining about an issue that has been solved, but using it as an example of staff messing up. This doesn't help anyone!

    Sorry if this opens up a can of worms sorry! I figured it'd be best if Truly got a "Zoo" answer from the source itself.

    For the record, I never did approve of the toxic behaviour from these members who did such in the Zoo. It was an uphill battle that never ended until it was far too late. But, I would like to say that these people have since learned their lesson and understand that words hurt, and actions have consequences. Don't hold stuff against these players who were tied to this situation. I would never ask you to forgive the people who hurt you, you have to dothat on your own time, but know that justice has been served where it had to be.

    if you have questions regarding the Zoo, DM me.
    same thing with anything regarding the Stories section. I'll be happy to discuss either.
    "With what voice, what words should I shout out this love?"

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  13. #19
    King Stunfisk URPG Staff Mikey57's Avatar
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    I feel ashamed that I'm going to have to step in and address why the issue with Elysia entering WWC the way she did was a huge rule breaker. This is not to put down Truly, Nitro, or Liam, and not to intentionally bring Elysia or Smiles down as well; I only wish to make sure the proper information is shared so there is no more arguing over this subject.

    Elysia is 100% allowed to enter WWC, like every other URPG member who's not banned and what not. I, myself, was very surprised to see her post the wonderful story she created, saying how it was one of many reasons she stayed within URPG. It was great to see her step forward to post something powerful like that.

    However, the rules are very explicit within the writing competitions. Quote, from Smiles Post from July 8th, 2015.

    For competition stories:


    • Swearing is no longer allowed. No swear words at all. Swear words have an adverse effect on voters' ability to read the story through and vote - everyone should be able to read it through and vote without being uncomfortable. No exceptions.


    This is where the controversy must begin. I observed the story and briefly skimmed it to the bottom, checking what she was writing for, if it was only cash or a Pokemon. However, within the final sentence,

    "Fuck"

    That, right there, is not allowed in Competitions. So, taking it upon myself, I reported this to Smiles, and posted in public saying how there was foul language within it. With unfortunate reasoning, ultimately ending with how it's ok for the F bomb to be dropped "once or twice" rules as a waiver from the competition rules. But the problem here is; it was not "once or twice". No, it was more than 15 times. Along with "Shit" being dropped about 15-20+ times, ultimately there were well over 35+ cursings in this story. The whole issue of "bias" within Truly's argument is 100% justified. I am not saying that bias is the exact reason for the wavering, but you can definitely see how it can be declared that way. I went to Swift because this was not the first time a story broke this rule in a writing competition.

    Last year, during SWC 2017, one of our older members, Flaze, entered with a very nice story! However, "Shit" and "ass" were dropped within it and, obviously breaking the rules, I'm going to make sure it's brought to Ely/Smile's attention. It might've only been each word once, but regardless; Rules in the competition have no exceptions. Smiles said to go to Ely, because she was in the round and did not want it to make her look like it was a foul play on her end, which I completely understand. Ely, however, never replied to my concerns/acknowledgement of this rule breaking. NO replies were made in this regard, and the competition went on as normal; they made it into the finals with a technical illegal entry.

    Ultimately, after a fair bit of arguments about the right way to handle this situation, we both decided it'd be best to give Elysia permission to edit her story and get rid of these 35+ curse words to make her story legal. It's unfortunate because it had to be done after entries for the competition closed. Plus, she was in the first round, it was not a good set up for this issue to happen the way it did. After needing editing twice, her story became legal; Yes, thank goodness.

    I want to declare again that I have zero problems with Elysia entering, I'm glad she did; but there can't be a double standard that allows a core rule within the competition to be broken multiple times, that it'll be ok for someone to enter with editing only happening after the submission window closes.

    There is more clarification to this issue, but for the respect of Smiles and Elysia, I will not be sharing my examples and claims due to the respect of their privacy. I have nothing against Smiles and Elysia after everything; I, again, just want to make sure the truth is provided so no more bickering will be continue. I also want to advice not to criticize Swift for his decision. I think, out of the few ways to handle this situation, it was the right choice due to everything currently happening.

    Also, as a quick final note following Ralins post, I am also someone who can provide information about the Zoo. I was a staff member within it, so I saw multiple sides to everything going on. After discussing everything regarding the "Zoo" within staff, let it be known I'm a credible source of any questions y'all might have regarding it. I'm here to provide the truth if anyone is honestly that curious.

  14. #20
    Comic Relief Elysia's Avatar
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    ?_?

    y’all write some long posts lol

    me posting my thoughts on any other topic in this thread will not improve anything. I’m only here to shed some light on how Smiles handled this WWC thing to me specifically, although I was not present for anything said in the server.

    Flaze’s SWC: had some potty words in it (it was his first time entering; he did not know the rules); it was brought to my attention -> it was brought to his attention; he was given time to edit and I thought he did. I chose not to DQ him ‘cause it seemed fair. My apologies for not telling Mikey that I had followed up.

    My WWC: had some potty words in it (I take a solid L on that one; I have no excuse besides carelessness and will not pretend to offer one); it was brought to Smiles’s attention -> it was brought to my attention; I was given time to edit and I did. I missed a stray “shit”; it was brought to my attention; I edited again. I asked Smiles if I should withdraw and she said no; the only thing I edited were the potty words.

    To my knowledge the decision to let me stay was based in precedent and not on some shadowy hold I still have on the section, but if it makes you (this was originally for you, Truly, but it can be for anyone) uncomfortable that I was allowed to enter, I will withdraw the story myself. I have no desire to cause any more issues for the community and submitted the story as one last hurrah for why we love playing games, but in some respects I agree that that sentiment was as highly unrealistic as the title of the story implies it was.
    Last edited by Elysia; 01-29-18 at 09:20 AM.

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