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Thread: [Development] Hidden Power changes?

  1. #1
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    Default [Development] Hidden Power changes?

    I'm the only one with no life and plenty of time, so let me see if I can help.

    Proposed changes to Hidden Power are as follows:

    TM Hidden Power price will change from $2,500 to $4,000.
    When you purchase TM Hidden Power, you must declare the Pokemon it is for and the Type that Hidden Power will become.
    Rerolling Stations will be demolished, and on their foundations, Changing Stations will be built.
    Changing Stations will allow you to change the Hidden Power of your Pokemon for a fee of $2,000 per change.
    Each Station will allow one HP change per Pokemon. (So, one change per pokemon per station)
    Changing Stations will be open like Rerolling Stations were: for two weeks, every six months.

    The first Changing Station will be the Grand Opening and offer free changes!

    This is all open for more discussion. As such, please add that discussion below this post.

    *A Pokemon with Hidden Power as a level-up move must declare what Type the move is in the Pocket-Mart, and it must thereafter be approved by an Official.
    Last edited by Truly; 12-22-17 at 06:07 PM.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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    Super Moderator URPG StaffAce Member ModeratorSuper Moderator Elrond's Avatar
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    I am of the opinion that, if we are going to get rid of randomness in determining HP types, we can also get rid of the re-roll events entirely. Rather, it makes more sense to just have trainers buy HP again from the PokeMart. I think that once the new system is implemented, the likelihood that trainers will want to change HP types after the first purchase is incredibly low.

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    Draconic Lorekeeper URPG Staff Dash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    I'm the only one with no life and plenty of time, so let me see if I can help.

    Proposed changes to Hidden Power are as follows:

    TM Hidden Power price will change from $2,500 to $4,000.
    When you purchase TM Hidden Power, you must declare the Pokemon it is for and the Type that Hidden Power will become.
    Rerolling Stations will be demolished, and on their foundations, Changing Stations will be built.
    Changing Stations will allow you to change the Hidden Power of your Pokemon for a fee of $2,000 per change.
    Each Station will allow one HP change per Pokemon. (So, one change per pokemon per station)
    Changing Stations will be open like Rerolling Stations were: for two weeks, every six months.

    The first Changing Station will be the Grand Opening and offer free changes!

    This is all open for more discussion. As such, please add that discussion below this post.
    Already brought this up in chat, so I might as well post it here too.

    $4,000 to me is below where I would want to go, which is $5,000 for it, or at the least, $4,500. I know it seems pointless to argue over such a small number like this, but I feel like its necessary. The only reason I argue for this is that we have two other moves that compare to Hidden Power in my opinion: Protect and Substitute.

    Hidden Power is a move that is distributed to every single Pokemon that is able to learn TMs, and is one of the most powerful attacking moves for a large majority of Pokemon because it gives them something they won't always have, and that's coverage. This one TM can make a Pokemon much more of a threat to deal with, and for some, it won't do much of anything for them. That's something that can be considered, but overall, I see it in the same light as the two TMs I've stated, and for something of this much value, I don't see a little more than $4,000 for a price being too much.

    In terms of Changing stations, I'm for this. I think we wanted to go with $2,500, but either doesn't matter to me too much. I'm more in the favor of the station happening every four or three months, but again, its not too much of a deal in my opinion.

    That's all I have for now.

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    And, Elrond, that's one reason why they aren't proposing the trainer just re-buy the TM again. Buying HP at 5k every time to replace your old one is a lot.

    Another reason Changing Stations are preferred over re-purchase, is so users can't swap back and forth frequently: an HP change is a long-term decision, well thought out rather than done on a whim.

    Apparently people would want to change HP types to challenge gyms or something. Roleplay use was also discussed, where a quick switch to an advantageous type (to start the Park run or what have you), then switch back to the standard for that Pokemon, might have even more power.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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    Honestly, I don’t like the idea of being able to freely being able to change hp types outside of gated instances I.c. Changing Stations. Even if it would allow ease to challenge gyms, a little silly. I think keeping chances to change HPs, somewithing completely foreign to the standard games to start with, would force players to think about what they want to do with their Pokémon ahead of time until the next change station can occur.

    I’m also in agreement that since we have choice and that having access to an HP of choice will make some special attackers really good (i.e. Infernape, Jolteon, Alakazam), and others viable (i.e. Magnezone) whose principal strategies rely on having coverage they simply don't have, HP is stronger than things like Shadow Ball or Psychic at the 3.5k level. Substitute is 4.5k and I believe that type of our choice HP should be 4.5 or 5k




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    Truly summed up a lot of what my thoughts are in regards to this topic. I just want to expresss some quick thoughts.

    I agree that there is competitive advantage to changing HPs based on upcoming fights, and I do believe that choosing your HP should be a conscious decision that affects the longterm. Many mons rely on HP to become more effective, but can also use a different HP as a niche tech to win specific matchups. I think a decent example is Jolteon; I think most would agree that Ice is universally accepted as the best HP for it, but Grass has a very good usage to let it win against a very specific matchup (swampert/quagsire). This decision comes at the cost of losing your Ice coverage for Grass type resists and every dragon ever, notably Garchomp. I think that this kind of conscious decision in building your Pokemon should be a long term decision, not something done on a whim. (Oh look, I'm going to challenge this Dragon gym lemme reroll to HP Ice on all my mons). I also do not think that it should be a permanent decision, because your own preferences, playstyle, lineups can change or even just simple mistakes.

    I think instead of doing it all through the mart and then reroll events, I like the idea of having a permanent "HP thread" where people will go to announce their HP choices on obtaining a TM and choosing to teach it or getting a fresh mon with it by level up (paper trails yo trust based system holla atcha). This way, instead of being scattered through the mart, they're all consolidated in one thread. Instead of having specific timeslots (2 weeks every 6 months) to change, how about we just allow everyone to reroll each Pokemon once per year (or 2/3/x if we don't like only once).

    This will all be done through the one dedicated thread then, and can be easy to monitor any particular instance of HP. If there's any issues over eligibility or proof of ownership for the HP (like making sure someone didn't change it without purchasing) then it's hella easy to search one single thread for it instead of multiple different threads (mart, change stations). Search function is really reliable for going through a single thread, it's combing multiple threads/forums that can be an issue with it from my experience. This way it's super easy to check on anyone's given HP because you know they will all be within the same thread. If you're worried about extra work on the staff then maybe make it a requirement that the player posts the link to the result of their last purchase/reroll as an eligibility check that staff can just easily follow up.

    There were some concerns raised that maybe this method could become messy but I don't think so. If we're keeping the requirement for players to have HP links somewhere as proof, then they can really easily post that link in the thread at any given time as an eligibility check when they want to do their reroll for the year, staff can cross-check, wam bam thank you ma'am we're done here. Wanna double check someone's mon? Just search their name in this single thread and find all of their HP claims ever.

    I really do not believe that HPs should need to be changed more than once per year, especially considering you do also have your initial purchase where you get to choose. This way people have more freedom for when they need or want to change, instead of getting shoehorned into one event period. Away from URPG during the event period? Forget or are otherwise busy and miss it? Too bad wait 6 months please. It's not a very encouraging system and I believe that time gating is effective, but make it a timegate where the player is still flexible to do it when they need to, not figure out they need to and then wait x months until the next event and hope they remember and are around for it. I'm all for events, but I don't think that the ability to change HP should be something limited to one.

    I also agree with the pricing of $4,000, instead of higher. I agree in the need for a price rise since the original cheap price was set that way due the fact you were gambling with what you got. If it were changed to be reliable, it becomes incredibly valuable and the current price is way too generous. However, I do not think that comparing it to Substitute or Protect is really fair. I think we can all agree these two moves are incredibly valuable and have very staple, all around use on every Pokemon in the game. They are not niche moves, they are incredibly solid and even give huge advantages in manipulating turns in public send game modes. Hidden Power is NOT something that every Pokemon can and will want to use in this same way.

    Some Pokemon, like Jolteon, it will become one of those must-buy TMs for sure, with multiple competitive and useful options in Ice/Grass etc. But for some Pokemon, Hidden Power just offers extra coverage for the sake of it without being overly useful. Mismagius's movepool is so versatile that it really doesn't benefit from it having it, and ideally I would run something like HP Fighting just for extra coverage that it doesn't have. However, this coverage is extremely niche and will rarely, if ever, be useful for me, and only against strange matchups like Aggron or Raticate-A where it would be marginally stronger than using STAB or Dazzling Gleam. These are not important matchups for Mismagius and it can win these matchups without a HP Fighting. Jolteon NEEDS the right HP to even hold its ground against notable counters against it, otherwise it's going to resort to switching out or haxing.

    A lot of types can really use the coverage, so I can agree to how strong it can be. In general, there's a lot of examples like Electric liking HP Ice, Fire liking HP Ice, Ice liking HP Fire, Fairy liking HP Ground. But there are also a lot of cases where HP is going be a kind of, single use in your entire URPG career kinda thing, like Mismagius (fighting?), Dragonite (grass?), Slowbro/king (electric?), Clefable (ground?), stuff that does not need the coverage and just picks something for the sake of it or to nail a specific 4x weakness. Some Pokemon also have niche uses like Greninja (maybe Kecleon idk I've never seen it used?) using HP for a defensive Protean.

    My point is, contrary to what you have said Dash, while every mon can learn it, not every one wants to or even needs to on the level of Sub/Protect. On top of my above points, there are honestly very few physical Pokemon that benefit from it in the slightest, which automatically cuts out at least a quarter of the available mons. It is a something everything can learn, but it is not something that everything can benefit from unlike Sub/Protect, so I don't think it deserves to be on the same pay scale, but definitely above a lot of the other viable attacking TMs that price around 3/3.5k due to how versatile it can be, so I think 4k puts us at a really good middle ground.

    Lemme know what you guys think bc some of these ideas weren't well received on Discord but I have put a lot of thought and I genuinely feel this is a good way to proceed.
    Last edited by Fabled; 12-23-17 at 12:51 AM.

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  9. #7
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    I'll agree that a single HP re-pick thread should be made in the Marketplace, rather than posting changes in the Mart.
    "Because it's always been this way" should never be an excuse to maintain a broken system.

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