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Thread: ✦ s e c o n d s b e f o r e / A NEW RP SECTION ✦

  1. #11
    Ocean Dweller Surfer Liam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magikchicken View Post

    I believe the use of Gym Badge-gated HMs and creativity (travel posts) in moving from place to place are a good concept.
    Reasons I believe this: HMs are not hard to come by in URPG, so most places will be easy to reach; however, gating some areas with gym badges will evoke the handheld games and increase the felt impact of having badges
    That's kind of the point. We want people to feel like they've achieved something after wining a badge. These areas that are "gated" wouldn't detract from people who don't have the badge in those areas, if that's what's concerning you ('cause it feels like you're concerned here, but didn't express how very well? not sure). But these go along the lines of like, in the Vale Kua there are certain mountain passes that are extremely foggy and after someone uses their HM Defog, see a secret pass, go in, find treasure or a Merciless mon or s/t.

    To some extent, I love the system for building a party begin with a Starter Pokmon, add more basics from URPG stats by obtaining in-game rewards, and even evolve them during play! Its one point of difference, and prevents SB from being easily merged with any other section, since it introduces a long, involved process needed before one gets to play the whole game. That said, I think the current progression one Pokmon per gym leader defeated is far too slow for most, albeit not for myself.
    Reasons I enjoy this: if SB is to stand alone, it needs elements that are seen nowhere else; this is one, and although its not enough on its own, its a step in the right direction. However, keep in mind that it is also a major detractor from accessibility the things I enjoy about it may make it hell for someone who doesnt want to have to painstakingly import their URPG stats one Pokmon at a time.
    Maybe this isn't said in the docs, or clear enough? idk. But you can go on a quest to import a mon whenever you want. So say your very first RP you want to encounter mons and import a couple from your stats, you can, you just have to have enough quality posts and RP it out. Also, keep in mind the Pokmon you capture in the RP are mons you keep in your URPG stats and you use in the RP (assuming you want to use them; you can set them aside like put them in a PO Box, or have family look after them or s/t like in the games I'd imagine)

    Things I dont love, and why:
    I believe theres a lack of any truly unique element to exploration or battles in SB.
    I can def. hear you out on the battle element as that's still up I the air, but how is AH's/Parks element of exploration any more unique than SB's? Or are there any uniqueness to exploration in AH/Park that SB doesn't have? Park has very little exploration from my experiences, but it has a set unique world and map; AH has a ton of exploration, maybe even too much for some people, and has a loose map. SB would have a large and set map in a unique world that one can simply just go exploring if they wanted to, but don't have to. So this threw me.

    Seconds Before is a game thats meant as a middle ground between Park and After Hours; unfortunately, I believe that SB, as it is right now, ends up being an amalgam that does both things, but less fluidly than each individual RP system does it. Seconds Before uses a scattering of new elements (including the ones I love, see above) for flavour, but the roleplay is AH and the battles are Park. This means that a player who comes for the anime-style battles but doesnt enjoy extensive freeform RP in between major battles is better served by the Park; whereas a player who prefers to avoid this kind of battle and takes part mostly in puzzle-based Quests is literally just playing AH, but with more rules and restrictions (and with the added inconvenience of having to run away from random encounters that break immersion.)
    So a lot of misconceptions here. If a player prefers the anime-style battles, they can simply just do that. They can only go on encounter/leader quests and express to the SB Professional that they prefer the classic, anime-style battles. On the flip side, if a player prefers to avoid battles, they can express that to the SB Professional and simply do other things for their encounter/leader quests. Lastly, if someone is going on a quest, they are not going to have an encounter unless it is specifically an encounter quest or they incorporated an encounter quest in their personalized quest.

    I dont love that SB is going to die if its not fixed. The conflict between SB and other sections may be vehemently denied by several of those present (all of whom happen to be the developers)
    Just a side note, there's no need to be over dramatic or over exaggeratory. I don't think anyone is "vehemently" denying anything. There's conflict, but there's no need to rub salt in wounds, thus, we are trying to make ways there wouldn't be conflict, and instead possible workings together or fantastic sections all around. This is difficult, but not impossible, and is one of the reasons why this thread was made.

    but it should be obvious that SB will compete with existing sections; this is because it is made of existing sections. I want Seconds Before to succeed, and Im concerned because its clear to me that SBs competition with existing sections wont kill the existing sections; itll kill SB. Thankfully, Seconds Before is far from finished so there is room to create something new; but if released in its current state, it will die out immediately following the rush of novelty (Id give it about 3 months, 5 tops.)
    Another side note before I respond to the actual content of this quote: I'll be blunt, the bolded sentence was very pretentious and rude; no one thinks this is ready for implementation yet. This thread was made to hear what the public had to think about the idea and possibly iron out details and inner workings.

    Reasons I believe this: Im a player of URPG, with a perspective the game developers lack. Ive spoken to others, who echo the following basic sentiment: were eager to experience the world of Seconds Before, but we arent going to stay interested in a game that is a mashup of a system only some of us like to play and another system only some of us like to play; we also wouldnt want to play a game that is a mashup of two things some of us like, but which executes both elements in a clunkier way than the originals. And I personally would be horrified if I thought the mashup was intended to replace either or both of them.
    Again, there's no need to be rude; this was not a completed section ready for implementation.

    Let go of the preconception that battles have to be anime-style. Were simulating the experience of playing the games at least to some extent, right? And the gym leaders are supposed to be a serious challenge, like in URPG, right? So use URPG rules, but give the actual %-based Kua bonuses described in the SB doc, apply the same bonuses to opponents, and most importantly give subjective bonuses for good battle roleplay (maybe 10-25% added damage, or 5-15%reduced damage taken?) There are currently no roleplay-based sections that actually use calculated battles. This would be unique, at least; it would be a draw for people who dont see what theyre wanting from ordinary battles, from the National Park, or from After Hours.
    I do like the idea of like using the URPG calc and actually having a battle and all, but then it would have to be that every SB Professional must be a ref, or a ref would need to calc each turn in each battle. Possible, but that would overcomplicate things and involve more parties/more things necessary to be a SB Professional and I'm not sure we would really want that for the section. Maybe a soft calc would be a good medium? I'm not sure. I'd just fear someone coming into an encounter and using leech seed + infestation + light screen + toxic + etc and the SB Professional making mistakes 'cause they're not an actual ref.

    Make Quests more distinct from AH Missions. One way would be to introduce a clear RPG framework of whatever kind, so players have an idea of what actions they could take on a game-mechanics basis, while keeping RP unrestricted.
    Maybe this isn't expressed well in the doc, and I think you have some misconceptions here too. AH Missions are vastly open and don't have an end goal that is expressed beforehand that directly effects the RP itself/the characters, where SB's Quests literally say what they're intended for in their titles. Examples: A Medium Mission in AH has you complete a certain amount of posts with other players and a Chronicler, but your prize package at the end had nothing to do with what happened in the RP. An Encounter + Movement Quest has you complete a certain amount of posts (dependent on the Pokmon you encounter) with an SB Professional and your prize at the end is the Pokmon you caught and being in a new Kua. So I don't see Quests being similar to Missions; they feel distinctly different.


    My main concrete suggestion for how to achieve the above is to use Bluetowels Dungeons system for some or all Quests. See here for details on how it works https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...7TQG2XkKsN6ELs

    Essentially, exploration is achieved by moving from scene to scene (called Rooms in the system, but a Room can be anything from a forest clearing to an aerial vantage above a battlefield) where roleplay, battles, and plot events can take place.

    Dungeons is still in early development and could be adapted to fit SB rather than forcing SB to change any of its vibrant world. For instance, a Dungeon could take the form of a fairly linear challenge like a series of gym Trainers followed by a Leader, like in the handheld games; or it could be a completely battle-free journey with puzzles along the way.
    It'd be ironic if SB tried to differentiate itself from other URPG things by incorporating Dungeons. But that aside, I don't think Dungeons should become the RP layout for SB. Maybe there could be a Dungeon Quest that is like Dungeons, maybe there could be an event crossover, but I really don't think this would fit the type of RP SB should be.

    --><--
    ^^^Click the Pyukumuku for my URPG Stats^^^


    Mako | Morru 07/27/2017
    Marlon is literally @ Liam









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  3. #12
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    I like Smiles' description of it as, "what you thought you were joining when you joined URPG."

    @Ralin & Weir, what this has that National Park does not, is roleplay. This is the trainer's journey that I wanted. NP is an arcade where you grind for pokemon. And yeah, yeah, inb4 you yell that it's not, and "nobody does that anymore!" but that's what it seemed to excel at: a trainer and a ranger buddy pair up and knock out 20 posts back and forth in a day so a guy can snag a weedle or something. I didn't really understand it myself. I guess the ranger gets paid. But it lacked any really interesting RP with any real story. You're in a National Park, on a guided tour. Weird shit goes wrong all the time, but it's not a good format for a long term character arc. IMO.


    What this has that After Hours doesn't have, is a relatable, "normal" premise that I can follow. I have a lot of issues with AH, from the post-Utopian setting that pretends like it's post-apocalyptic, to the potential for terrible furries, to... more things. I'm cutting a lot out. I'm not here to bash on AH.
    Further, you aren't a pokemon trainer. You're just some dude. If I wanted to play just some dude with magic powers, I can play D&D with people or a hundred video games that offer that same premise. I came for pokemon. I want to train pokemon.

    I also can't get myself interested in AH because it is so distant and unrelated to URPG. Things I have in URPG don't matter in AH, things I get in-character from AH don't matter in URPG. It's too separate, too far removed for me and I don't like it, even though I want to (as it's the "better" of the two RP systems here.) [/quote]



    THIS GIVES THE FANTASY OF THE TRAINER'S JOURNEY: I get to play a cool trainer character, I get travel and meet and catch new pokemon, I get to have adventures in a pokemon world, I get to battle gyms, I get to have Anime-Style Battles, I get to use the pokemon I have in MY URPG pokedex.

    I like the theme of the setting. It's like an old Chinese flavor setting. I have had a character I thought would be cool for PTU or PTA or whatever it is, but nobody plays that. That character would have been weird and out of place in NP. It certainly wouldn't have worked in AH. But it fits with this setting pretty damn well. I'm excited.


    Things I'd like to see: Badges that give your pokemon buffs IN GAME. You have Manifests for what district your Trainer comes from, but what really interests ME is seeing alternate, unusual rewards that apply to your POKEMON (because the Trainer doens't need +1 speed, unless they're in there fighting.)
    So maybe you do a heroic deed and you are awarded a special gemstone by a high ranking NPC, and so long as your pokemon is holding it, they can use flamethrower, even if the pokemon normally could not.
    Or maybe you and another Trainer are locked in a special, pokemon haiku battle where whoever writes the best haiku (as judged by a princess) gets a bonus to attack for a turn.
    Maybe you DO have the trainer join in on the fight-- you could run battles like a well-choreographed martial arts movie, where pokemon and trainer are weaving together and blocking attacks and generally synergizing, to fight another pokemon and human team.

    So, yeah, (I got off the rails for a sec) special item rewards that provide an in-SB bonus that's not possible in the games/Battles. Trinkets and cool stuff. Probably rewarded infrequently (like maybe a character can gain three, total: one through an easy mission, onethrough a medium mission, and one through a hard mission.) I love that stuff.


    Nitro has already outlined a bunch of ways in which players can interact with gym leaders that wont result in this being 8 separate battle quests
    Is there some place you can list these for me?

    Also, call the officers "Shi," (or maybe even "Onmyoshi.") As you narrow down the setting to have more focused lore, you might find something better to call them. (Like, I expect an Alola-type catchphrase and some loose philosophy to be baked in here.)

    GL, looking forward to development.

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  5. #13
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    tl;dr I'm super down.

    I'd love to see actual maps and just
    basically make this the URPG Pokemon MMORPG
    In fantasy tibet!

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  7. #14
    Steel Soul Design TeamURPG StaffAdministratorSuper Moderator K'sariya's Avatar
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    I want to preface this with saying that I had no plan or intent on posting in this thread, simply because I think that almost all of the questions that are being asked are being answered right now behind the scenes, as Felly and I are cooperating with SB staff to help differentiate SB from Park. These changes will help clarify with systems (not just with sentiment) how SB will be characteristically different from Park (in regards to Ralin's questions), which will make most of this discussion passe by the time those changes are made.

    However, since the discussion has shifted now toward Park and its sustainability, there are some things that need to be said, and I don't think anyone else will say them, so here I am. There have not been any posts by Rangers in this thread to give the perspective that is needed here, so I just wanted to clear some things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    There isn't evidence about AH-Park correlations, and I won't claim that this is indicative. However, if you really want to get into the numbers about Park specifically:
    April - May: 8 posts (this immediately follows the March-April period, where Rangers totaled 75 posts just before this. This is where I burn out after becoming a Ranger in the beginning of March, and where Magik begins to burn out after carrying the Park for many months previous)
    May - June: 3 posts (these are just my posts, still post burn-out for both Magik and I)
    June - July: 22 posts (I was promoted to Elite in early July. These are all my posts but one, which were done surrounding excitement for/from that promotion.)
    July - September: 21 posts (These posts happen solely from Velo and CowboyJake's promotions, which happened due to them joining URPG/Park, and also my promotion stirring Felly and I back up to process quizzes)
    This is a small dataset and it's hard to extrapolate what the spike is for, and I wouldn't have the arrogance to claim that it's for AH Campaign starting and people getting in the RP mood~~ because there are so many other factors (people not having classes/finals, Rangers being lit, etc), but it's worth looking at. Also worth looking at honestly is how things do tend to stagnate, and how we can look into ways of fixing these things.
    As a Ranger, I can clarify with confidence that these numbers are unrelated to Campaign. I've bolded why on each. I rearranged them so you can see how it evolves chronologically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysia View Post
    There are two ways to approach this. The first is to acknowledge that AH has only one section Head (Smiles), but if you're implying that Ace Chroniclers have the same power to enact positive change in their communities as any other Senior/Lead/Elite Position, then we could argue that the changes in Park leadership will not change the number of active section heads. The second is to ignore all the above data and hope that some genuine positive stuff will come out of this, which I could support! There's a lot of backstory here; no one wants to see Park die, but no one knows what to do.
    I'm not even trying to be aggressive when I say that I believe you are being purposefully obtuse here. You and I have the same power to enact positive change in AH solely because Smiles is an active Head that responds quickly and positively to ideas and messages, and is also a direct line of communication to staff that allows for these ideas to be moved forward quickly. And you know this, and I know you know this. I know you do because if you didn't know, then you and everyone else wouldn't have pressed for new Heads. If Smiles was an inactive Head, AH and the amount of power you and I have would be much, much worse off. Even if you were just saying this theoretically, it's still so completely willfully turning a blind eye to all of the obvious circumstances that it's not something that should ever be implied, even theoretically. Once again, I'm not trying to say this aggressively or be aggressive in saying this. There's just not a more clear way to say it.

    On top of that, not a single active Ranger (Felly, CowboyJake, Magikchicken, Velo, and I) had the direct connection and communication provided by being staff once Felly left staff. Art had Sou (an official) in connection with Staff, and during the past few months, Sou was practically serving as Expert in Curating that let her have at least a portion of that power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smiles View Post
    I've been doing a lot of reflecting back to when I made After Hours two years ago, which has been both insightful and also a bit befuddling given different context. During that entire time of AH's creation, no one asked what would happen to the National Park. Winter approved of AH; she continued on to win Character of the Month on numerous occasions, esteemed awards indicative of the both / and philosophy, in which you can participate and have both sections and encourage the success of simultaneous sections. In the same vein, no one asks what will happen to Battles and Contests with the introduction of the Battle Factory or a potential Dungeons section. No one would think that any of those current projects would interfere with what's currently in place. I've come to this conclusion:

    the anxiety is not whether the URPG can maintain another role playing section; the current concern revolves around Park's ability to stay afloat as it currently is. Reframed, this is not a conversation about Seconds Before - this is a conversation about National Park's diminishing activity, which has been occurring over the course of several months and is not a causation related to this.
    While I do agree that the conversation also includes concern over Park's diminishing activity, 1) I believe that most of that diminishing activity is related to having an inactive section head (reasons why I think this below), and 2) After Hours was not seen as any "threat" to Park because they were so distinctly different. There was practically no overlap between AH and Park. Everything about them is so drastically on different sides of the RP spectrum. The reason why Seconds Before is a concern in regard to the Park is because in the current state that's been posted here, there is still implied a heavy overlap with Park and its systems, since its systems are based on Park's but with some more specific systems augmented onto them. As aforementioned, this is being fixed, and will require some work still to differentiate the sections, but that's why the comparison is not nearly as effective.

    I would really like to think that Park's activity is less of a matter of its concept and more of a matter of its leadership. We've seen plenty of examples of sections flourishing because they have active leadership (Contests and AH come to mind). But Park is a spectacular example, in my opinion, of a section that suffers from not having active leadership. I say this in comparison to AH (as it is the only other RP section).

    Here's my breakdown of some of Park's activity:

    RANGER ACTIVITY:
    January 2016 - March: 17 posts, Felly, Winter
    March - May: 34 posts, Felly, Winter
    May - December: 45 posts, Magik (21), Felly (21), Winter (3)
    December: 24 posts, Magik, Felly, LowlyHumanCub, Winter
    December 2016 - January 2017: 37 posts, Magik, Felly, LowlyHumanCub, Winter
    January 2017 - February: 19 posts, LowlyHumanCub, Magik, Felly
    February: 35 posts, LowlyHumanCub, Magik, Felly
    February - March: 27 posts, Magik, Winter, and I
    March - April: 53 posts, Magik, Felly, Winter, and I
    April: 22 posts, Magik, Felly, and I
    April - May: 8 posts, Magik, Felly, and I
    May - June: 3 posts, myself
    June - July: 22 posts, Felly and I
    July - September: 21 posts, CowboyJake, Felly, Velo, and I

    In the wages above, Winter has made 49 posts out of 367 total posts, which means she makes up only about 13% of the activity above. If we remove the first two wages on that list (January 2016 to May 2016), she made 22 posts out of 316 posts and made up barely 7% of the activity since then. On top of this:

    PARK EVENTS:
    Winter Wheel 2015: 1,047 days ago
    Mini Run Event 2014: 1,361 days ago
    Gen 6 Release Event 2013: 1,451 days ago

    PARK SHOP SPECIAL ITEMS: (Shop section, "Check back here often for special new items!")
    Last Park Shop Edit Date: (BMG) 867 days ago

    On the other hand, look at Smiles' activity in AH. Smiles has not missed having wages in a Chronicler wage period since at least before December 2016 (note: I'd have #s for this if it were a little easier to count [ ranger makes it easy by stating # of posts], just doing this as quickly as possible right now since homework's a'callin :weary:!). On top of that, we know she's been an active head behind the scenes because since that same time (December 2016), AH's Game Changes Log has seen eleven out of its fifteen posts since December of 2016 alone. That averages out to basically at least one game change a month. And to top that off, since that same date, AH has had at least three events.

    Comparatively, Park has not had an event in over a thousand days, and has also not seen any changes since around that same time.

    Now, I'm not naive enough to think that just Felly and I stepping up to lead Park will magically make everything better. We know this isn't the case. Since Park has not been changed in literally years, there are some pieces that need to be trimmed and shaped up (which we've begun to do already). But there has been a time when Park worked, and it was when it had active leadership. I'm not trying to lynch Winter or anything; Winter put in some spectacular, monumental work for the Park, and we will always be incredibly appreciative for that, and when she had the time to run it, Park saw its peak.

    I do think that there is room for a third RP section. I think that SB would be a FANTASTIC RP section for URPG, one I would love to participate in once Felly and I have seen Park to sustainability and I have time to do so. I do think that since Park and AH are on such vastly different sides of the spectrum, there is room for something inbetween, and I think this would work nicely. I feel like it has its identity in sentiment, as Smiles has explained--now it just needs that identity in its systems, which like I said, is being worked on and I'm sure will be fantastic in its completion.

    It's for all of the above reasons that I do not think SB should replace Park, to answer dp (and others') questions on that matter. Felly and I were considering a Park overhaul because we were essentially at the end of our rope and unable to do anything big from our then Elite position of power. Discussing even potential ideas for changes took weeks due to slow responses. Even then, there's a reason why during that, I kept trying to lean heavily toward using as much of Park's current concept as possible; this was because Felly and I love Park, and we feel like Park might be able to work in its current form, without a complete, massive overhaul that distances itself so much. I do not think we need to give up on Park yet.

    We're all very aware of the way that URPG and the world around it is changing. I feel like Park, having had practically no changes in the past two years, is just suffering from not being changed to keep up with it. The changes that Felly and I made have reflected that, and will continue to reflect that. We look forward to the growth and continuation of both of these sections moving forward!

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  9. #15
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    Posting in this thread for the first time; sorry I haven't been more available within these conversations. To be fair, a lot of these conversations would kill me slowly.

    But for real though, u guys know me, so my Discord DMs are available if anyone wants my thoughts on things. I'll smack down any bullshit but I'll also hear it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Truly View Post
    Things I'd like to see: Badges that give your pokemon buffs IN GAME. You have Manifests for what district your Trainer comes from, but what really interests ME is seeing alternate, unusual rewards that apply to your POKEMON (because the Trainer doens't need +1 speed, unless they're in there fighting.)

    [...]

    So, yeah, (I got off the rails for a sec) special item rewards that provide an in-SB bonus that's not possible in the games/Battles. Trinkets and cool stuff. Probably rewarded infrequently (like maybe a character can gain three, total: one through an easy mission, onethrough a medium mission, and one through a hard mission.) I love that stuff.

    [...]

    Is there some place you can list these for me?

    Also, call the officers "Shi," (or maybe even "Onmyoshi.") As you narrow down the setting to have more focused lore, you might find something better to call them. (Like, I expect an Alola-type catchphrase and some loose philosophy to be baked in here.)

    GL, looking forward to development.
    These are really good ideas! We adopted the badge buffs in the style of GSC era badges -- replacing the district boosts -- and are working on new district boosts that are more unusual / more RP-based to complement the (battle-based) badge buffs. We're also taking the idea to name things after Onmyoshi, because that's genius.

    I don't have a proper list of ways in which players can interact with gym leaders outside of battles to gain badges, but it's very open-ended. The idea, though, is to mirror the leniency / open-endedness from the anime, which is summed up pretty well by this graf from the Bulbapedia page on Badges:
    Spoiler:
    Trainers do not necessarily have to win a battle with the Gym Leader in order to earn a Badge, and Gym Leaders can be quite lenient about giving out Badges. For example, Ash was awarded several Badges during the original series because of his kind heart and determination; Misty has berated Ash on several occasions because he did not properly earn all of his Kanto Badges, arguing that he really only earned three Badges (the Thunder, Soul, and Volcano Badges) and the other five Badges were given to him on technicalities. In Flint Sparks the Fire!, the Sunyshore Gym was shown to be handing out free Beacon Badges. The Orange Crew all have entire Gym matches devoted to unconventional battling styles.
    urpg

    [18:11] [Ranger Alliance]: (webdragoon1337) nitro, you in here?
    [18:11] Nitro: hello
    [18:12] [Ranger Alliance]: (webdragoon1337) knew there was another cool guy in here

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  11. #16
    URPG Demoderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    I think the other staff in this thread have already touched on a few of these points, but they all have some investment in the ideas or sections one way or another. So I'd like to impartially clarify a few things:

    This pitch will not be merged into or used to revamp the National Park or After Hours.
    It was originally developed with the National Park's issues in mind as one possible solution. That's why a lot of you can still see "Park revamp" as either a possible implementation, or a source inspiration for this idea. However the scope of the new development diverged significantly from the structure of the Park. The respective leadership parties agreed that we did not want to impose this level of change on the Park and we are now looking to create it as a separate section. There will be improvements to the National Park by K'sariya and Mistral which are wholly independent of this.

    This thread exists for development, not approval
    If the team behind Seconds Before was looking for implementation approval, they'd only need to come to me. We used to have a Development forum for this sort of this, but that was scrapped due to its infrequent use, hence the Trainer's Court. We're looking to create a section that fits in that gap between Park and AH.
    - Park: Capture/Encounter driven, large world, focused subset world interaction per run
    - SB: Closed plot-driven RP, open direction to navigate through that plot, character development is your Pokemon team, large world
    - AH: Open character-driven, open character development, open plot, large open world, its crazy and I can't make sense of it tbh but it looks fun for those involved

    I do not believe Seconds Before is a mix of elements from Park and AH - I hope to see a roleplay which targets the elements that NEITHER of them have, such as those I mentioned above.

    There WILL be some overlap
    This isn't because it's ripping off Park, or because it's ripping off AH. It's because everything about URPG is ripping off Pokemon. Our source material is Pokemon. Two decades of GameFreak and The Pokemon Company and Nintendo and you get the idea.

    Overlap = URPG integration
    One of the big criticisms that hits URPG is that everything comes back to Battling, as Truly somewhat mentioned. Catch Pokemon from Stories, Art, Park, Soda Shoppe, Berry Store... to battle with. The recent popularity of Contests has helped this a little, as has the introduction of Legendaries as milestones for all sections. But it still essentially comes back to a mechanical purpose rather than a creative one. You can have linked stories but there's no benefit to it. You could take Park Pokemon back in on your next run but there's no end-game.

    I think there's a huge merit in developing a creative section which actually DOES overlap with the rest of URPG, because as Smiles said "what you thought URPG was going to be before you started URPGing". We are criticised for not truly being a RP all the time, and more of a text-based representation of the Pokemon turn-based RPG video games. Park and AH are both great implementations of roleplaying, but they do not have any URPG-centric endgame. Seconds Before does, and the Pokemon you get in other sections can contribute directly towards it.

    EDIT: Big thanks to everybody who has said what they do/don't like about this section, why they feel that way and contributed ideas for change. Feedback is all taken on board - please remember Seconds Before won't be able to change to suit everybody but that's why we have Park, AH, and all our other creative and mechanical sections too.
    Last edited by Monbrey; 11-12-17 at 07:44 PM.

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  13. #17
    Comic Relief Elysia's Avatar
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    hey look it’s us again!

    a general note: thank you all so much for your continued feedback. We’re working to make a game that’s enjoyable for the URPG community, so we hope that these changes + future feedback + future changes + futerer feedback +etc will get us there!

    LORE THINGS
    Truly’s suggestion that we call leader’s ‘Shi’ was brilliant and we are excited to incorporate that! Thank you; we all loved it so much when we heard about it.

    BATTLE MECHANICS
    A major change that we’ve kicked around for a bit: damage taken will automatically not heal between threads. We think that this significantly differentiates SB between the Run-focused nature of Park and the liquid time of AH, and helps us use fixed time with consequence. Healing areas will be available in fixed locations (before and after Kua Shi) and at the Navigator’s discretion, and the player has the option to scavenge/use healing items at a much higher frequency. We think that, in addition to playing into our lore, this change will affect how players approach encounters and items (outlined in detail below).

    A second major change: SB will use HP to indicate health (instead of %). We believe that HP ties better into the unique levelling and item systems that SB offers, and gives the character a sense of growth as they progress through the region. HP is calculated at 31 IV’s and based on level (there are a ton of online calcs that do this, such as here, but if this idea is popular/well-liked, we’ll beg Monbrey for something). Here’s an example of what stats will look like under this system:
    Charmander (lvl 5) | HP: 18/21

    --vs --
    Abra (lvl 4) | HP: 12/17

    Pokemon can use any combination of abilities that they have in URPG. For example, a Dragonite with Inner Focus and the unlocked ability Multiscale would be less likely to flinch in the face of danger, and would take less damage at full HP! Just be aware -- the wild Pokemon have this too!

    POKEMON IMPORTS
    One of the most common complaints was that it would be difficult to bring your favorite Pokemon from URPG into the game without a lot of upfront investment. Additionally, Mart Pokemon aren’t on the Onmyo encounter lists, so players could realistically be forced to spend their imports on getting their favorite starters. We wanted to balance this with a realistic sense of progress.

    Players can post in the SB Shop to “import” any Pokemon available in the Pokemart from their stats at any time for $3,000. Pokemon imported via this method are at level 1, so you’ll need to train them up, but we think that this will give players a wider variety of choices for their roster, and let them play with their favorites.

    The original methods of importing -- clearing the first 5 posts of a post-Kua dungeon, or successfully defeating the Kua Shi, are still valid!

    BERRIES
    Berries are useful now!

    Damage doesn’t heal off very frequently, and you’ll be taking it a lot, but don’t worry -- there are a ton of items along the way. Your SB trainer has access to any Berry that you own in URPG, and the number of Berries you have in URPG defines the maximum number of berries you have in your inventory in SB. However, in SB, these Berries are not purely infinite use and will instead refresh their SB use under a certain set of circumstances:

    • You may post in SB’s Berry Grove once per week to “regrow” a Berry of your choice. This only increases the number of SB uses you have, not the number of URPG berries you have.
    • There is a 20% chance on in-game post in wilderness areas (Dungeons, Captures, and Routes) that the character will come across a wild grove, which will “regrow” a random number of consumed Berries from the player’s stats.


    Because examples speak better than words sometimes:

    • You have 3 Lum Berries in your URPG Stats.
    • Your SB inventory will have something like “Lum Berry (3/3)”. The 3 is your max number of Lum Berries because that's how many you own in URPG.
    • While fighting a wild Pokemon, your Pokemon becomes paralyzed. You use a Lum Berry in SB.
    • Your SB inventory will now say “Lum Berry (2/3)”. You still have 3 Lum Berries in your URPG Stats.
    • You can replenish your SB Berry inventory through either of the above two methods.


    Berries do not have to be held by your Pokemon to be used. Most Berries perform identically to the way they do in-game, with some exceptions:

    • Oran Berry -- heals 100 HP
    • Sitrus Berry -- heals 200 HP
    • Resist Berries -- reduce damage of one incoming attack of that type, regardless of effectiveness

    These numbers (HP, drop %, etc) are in no way set; please tell us what they should be!

    ENCOUNTER LISTS

    Encounter lists were tweaked a little! Squall Kua is now primarily Water/Dark types (to reflect the danger/riptide aspect we were going for), while Chasm Kua is now primarily Rock/Fighting types (to reflect the indomitable spirit). This changes Squall Kua’s sigil to Sharpedo. The updated encounter lists are here.

    • Squall Kua will now have two separate dungeons, unlockable after beating the Kua Shi. Each has their own separate encounter list, and players can choose which dungeon they want to visit.

      • Island-based dungeon, with extra unlockables accessible with HM Whirlpool
      • Undersea-based dungeon, with extra unlockables accessible with HM Dive
    Last edited by Elysia; 11-13-17 at 01:16 AM.

    adamantine

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  15. #18
    Flame Body Mako's Avatar
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    Ey it’s Mako!

    Caveat: I have no experience with the nitty-gritty of Roleplays (RPs) other than my runs through the National Park (NP), and I haven’t had the opportunity to get into After Hours (AH) yet, so take all below as my views as a regular URPGer with a hint of someone who’s in to game design theory.

    I think Monbrey has outlined and clarified above what Seconds Before (SB) and its existence would mean for the other RP sections, so I’m no commenting on that issue save for a quick personal note that SB being a thing wouldn’t detract from my participation in NP or AH, free time permitting, especially with the recent changes to NP. I’m always an advocate for more options and I think there’s room for the three RP sections to coexist!

    ---

    Firstly I’d like to express how much I love the setting; I’ve always fantasized about the Pokemon world but set in something like the world of Avatar: The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra, or heck, even Naruto (so much so that I’ve been meaning to start writing a series of it for URPG, but I digress) and that seems to be fulfilled to an extent with SB. Aside from being another method of capturing Pokemon, the setting is the largest draw SB has for me. I love the expedition thing NP has going on and do intend to get into AH, but I love the fantasy genre and SB leans towards it more than either NP or AH.

    I’d also like to echo what Smiles mentioned: something like this is what I thought I would be doing when I joined URPG. That’s not to say I didn’t love what URPG actually was when I did join (I have stuck around for years now, after all), just that I think SB provides me an avenue to live the RPG dream in URPG in the way I imagined a text-based Pokemon RPG would be.

    Now for some opinions/comments/questions that aren’t particularly arranged in terms of the gravity of the issue at hand!

    1. Seconds Before is a bad name.
    Let me explain. I don’t mean that it’s a bad name in the traditional sense of it’s awful why would you name your dog that. In fact, I think it has an allure to it, and there’s definitely a feeling of direness and imminence to it, which is awesome.

    However, I think it’s a bad fit for naming an entirely new section—mainly because it’s not indicative of what members will be doing in it. One principle of game design I personally adhere to is audience resonance. I think ‘Seconds Before’ as a name just isn’t resonant to the audience—us, the members of URPG—because it is so vague. It opts for flare and sacrifices familiarity in the process.

    But why does audience resonance matter when naming sections? The name of a section is a pretty prominent thing, and using a name that’s not resonant creates confusion where there doesn’t have to be any. It can be daunting, even alienating, and intimidate new players from diving into it. Look at the other sections—Art Gallery, Battles, Contests, National Park, and Stories—all these have very resonant names; they say what they have to offer on the tin. Relatively speaking, National Park might be the weakest of them in terms of resonance, but I think it still does a fair job of summarizing what that section is all about.

    “But Morru! What about After Hours?” I think AH suffers too in this regard, but also believe its name is grandfathered in and would possibly be too late to change at this point. There’s some merit in the Seconds Before—After Hours connection namewise, and it’s cutesy, but I like to think we have the opportunity here to go for a more resonant name.

    Of course there’s the counterargument of don’t-judge-the-book-by-its-cover (or title I suppose is more appropriate in this case). But I don’t think a section name has the same luxury as a name of a book or a {s t o r y} would have. (sidenote I love your story naming conventions ely, I just don’t think it works here, don’t kill me pls)

    We could leave the explanation to the board description or elaborate the whats and the whys of the section in the appropriate threads, but I maintain that a section name should be able to stand alone. ‘Seconds Before’ is unintuitive and doesn’t do this.

    I know it can be hard to let go of the name for those involved in SB’s inception, but I hope there’s at least some consideration of my points above.

    Lastly, I’d lowkey feel like a jerk if I didn’t suggest some alternatives we could take, so here’s some. Do note that I’m not claiming any of these particular suggestions as the best ones to use; think of them as templates if anything.

    A. Something that refers to the Onmyo Region
    At the most basic it could just be ”[The] Onmyo Region”, or have a snazzy modifier like ”Onmyo Explorations”/”Onmyo League” and what not. Positioning is obviously flexible so it could take the form of ”Explore Onmyo”/”Explorers of Onmyo”/”Journey Across Onmyo” as well.

    B. Include a “Roleplay” prefix/suffix.
    This is a less elegant and a bit more drastic solution, but it gets the job done. So something like ”Roleplay: Onmyo Region”. ”Roleplay: Seconds Before is also something I’d cede to if there’s a strong insistence on keeping the name. Going this route would also open up opportunities to add the same prefix/suffix to AH or NP.

    Alternatively I could just be imagining things and it’s just a quirk of RPs I’m not familiar with. Looking at you, Fizzy Bubbles.

    2. The kuas
    Possibly the biggest thing I love about SB are the kuas. Factions are neat. No problems here other than just me voicing out that hopefully they’re all balanced with respect to each other, such that there’s no one kua that just renders another obsolete by being strictly better.

    3. Attack modification
    This paragraph I found confusing:
    Player Pokemon also get an extra 1.2 “STAB” on all type-based attacks from the players kua (i.e. if a player starting from Thunder Kua has a Charizard that uses Thunderpunch/Dragon Claw/Iron Tail, it gets a boost). However, type-based attacks from the kua opposite to the player’s kua attack with 83% power (i.e. that same Charizard will use a weaker Wing Attack)
    I’m a fan of this concept, but is the 83% a fixed rate? If so, why 83% specifically? Is it some arbitrary number? I’m missing something here.

    4. SB Legend

    What’s the expected length of time until completion? How does SB Legend stack up against other RP section legends? How would Navigator/SB official Legend work?

    5. Modifications for non-level based evolutions

    Interesting decision. Why don’t they just use items or whatever the official method of evolution is?

    ------------------

    That’s all for now.


    SB hype is real.
    you'll see how it's faded
    Elrond - Today at 1:43 PM
    stop it morru we all know ur fursona is a Houndoom crossed with a thestral

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  17. #19
    the vibration pokemon Nitro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    enormous wall of text that is greatly appreciated, but also greatly enormous
    Hi! Let me reply to each of your points.

    1. Seconds Before is a bad name.

    Agreed. It was more of a working title, because AFTER HOURS JOKE, and now I'm all attached to it, but it doesn't really serve the community at large. It's not finalized, but we'll probably just go forward with something more basic like "The Onmyo Region," which really isn't basic at all, because Onmyo is a fucking great name.

    2. The kuas

    Balance is a difficult part of this -- there was one kua benefit that was basically Grassy Terrain healing after every post, but obviously, that was wildly OP. So it's something we're keeping in mind. I agree with you, however, that the factions are neat.

    3. Attack modification

    That paragraph you listed was from earlier on in the dev process. For now, the plan is *probably* to throw out the hard numbers, so forget that bit. It'll be a subjective consideration, along with other factors.

    4. SB Legendary

    Sidebar: It was pointed out to me that there is some ostensible similarity between SB Champion and Battles' Champion, but I personally don't find it to be an issue. While SB is laid out similar to the games (so with a gym/E4 storyline of its own), I think the nature of this challenge is very distinctive from that as a creative/RP challenge, as well as from other RP section legends because of how closely it's bound to in-character / story progression.

    Mechanically, Ely drummed up some numbers at the start of all this so that if we boiled it down to a minimum or expected post-count, clearing SB is close enough to the Park legend's CC count (or AH's old one before shifting to a milestone system). And then if those numbers are off and everybody zooms through SB, then we'll shift those numbers.

    edit: WORDS FROM ELY
    Spoiler:
    If you're just doing the direct-to-legend route (which would be ridiculously hard because you'd have 1 Pokemon):

    1-2 Badges: 5 posts each
    3-4 Badges: 10 posts each
    5-6 Badges: 20 posts each
    6-8 Badges: 25 posts each

    Travel Between each Kua: 5 posts per kua (this can be reduced from 40 total posts to 16 posts depending on how many HM's you own, but owning all of them is a solid fiscal investment given how utterly useless things like HM Flash are normally)

    = 160 posts + Champion RP of indeterminate length

    We would hope that people would also go on Capture Quests and Dungeon Quests because they're cool, but we might incorporate some other checkpoints (go on one of each Capture Quest difficulties or something) if the scales seem inbalanced.

    AH Legend:
    3 Basic Missions (3 x 5 = 15 posts)
    3 Medium Missions (3 x 15 = 45 posts)
    3 Hard Missions (3 x 25 = 75 posts)
    3 Non-Mission Threads (3 x 10 = 30 posts)

    = 165 posts
    (note that the other two AH legend reqs that require P, being level 3 abilities and 3 Shoppe Items, would feasibly be covered in the P earned by fulfilling the requirements above)


    5. Modifications for non-level based evolutions

    Honestly just wanted to keep things simple. It would've been easy to stick in things like evo stones, but then more difficult for things like Friendship or Magneton -> Magnezone. Forget Shelmet -> Accelgor, Mantyke -> Mantine, or whatever else future generations spring on us. There's too many methods of evolution, and especially WEIRD methods of evolution, to bother inundating people with them all. I honestly feel like GF has played itself, having to keep track of them all in every new game.
    Last edited by Nitro; 11-18-17 at 04:40 PM.
    urpg

    [18:11] [Ranger Alliance]: (webdragoon1337) nitro, you in here?
    [18:11] Nitro: hello
    [18:12] [Ranger Alliance]: (webdragoon1337) knew there was another cool guy in here

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  19. #20
    URPG Demoderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Regarding 83%:

    100% * 1.2 = 120%
    100% / 1.2 = 83.33333% (83%)

    I assume that's why this "hard number" was chosen, though it could just as easily me 120%/80% or some other less fixed value.

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