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Thread: EXTERMINATING Basics

  1. #1

    The Wrath of Hoenn

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    Default EXTERMINATING Basics

    You probably think this is a joke thread and there's a new ref/judge/something. Well joke's on you, this one's real.

    We all know basics are the biggest mess in URPG and have been a few years. Evolution appeals to people for several reasons (for instance, enjoying the journey or simply wanting it over and done with) and basics fail at all of them. There is no "journey" to saying the same move 20 times. Asking around for days on some occasions is not just getting it over and done with. It's also a very abusable system that can even discourage people who have no interest in abusing it (for instance, when Bee didn't want to buy things so he could get the evolution in his Pokédex and then gift it). As far as I can tell, basics are only "liked" for free money or being the only way to evolve Pokémon. The system has been in need of change for a few years and every knew it, but with a lack of alternatives.

    So how about an alternative idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Idea
    Ways to earn experience:
    • Use the Pokémon in a Contest (any type)
    • Use a Rare Candy
    • Use the Pokémon in an actual battle, 2v2+ (none of these pointless 2HKOs people do now)
    • Use the Pokémon in battle in the National Park (NOT fleeing)
    • Complete three encounters with the Pokémon in the National Park (not including the above)


    Changes that accompany this
    • Add Rare Candies to the Pokémart – Current price suggestion 1k each, 6k for 7, 8k for 10.
    • Add Rare Candies to the Underground – Current suggestion is add 1 Rare Candy, 3 Rare Candy, 5 Rare Candy at the end of evolution stones
    • Some amount of Starter Package modifications*


    Spoiler:
    *The starter package is tricky. Obviously the current system enables new players to easily build up a roster by using the basics pay to buy another Pokémon. If we remove the focus on that type of basic battles (and/or 1v1 entirely, Winter suggested leaving 1v1s), building up an initial roster can be difficult. More problematic, however, is finding a person who can give them a fair first battle. First impressions are important and heavily unbalanced first battles is the way to make people stick around. On other hand, there's already quite a bit included in the starter package. Compared to when most of us joined, we would now get $7,000, a free mart Pokémon, a free EM, and $5,000 Contest Credits more (okay, there was a thread for claiming that $5,000 CC back then, but you had to know about it before you did contests). Of course, in those days finding other new members was extremely easy.

    Let's do some math about the starter package. Assume a new trainer picks up Charmander and Dratini as their two Pokémon. $10,000 to spend would buy a maximum 12 Rare Candies, should they attempt that route. At a minimum, that's 8 more evolution points needed and a lack of remaining money. If they're a Park person, it's easy enough to go on a beginner run and at least get one of the two to the middle evolution (though that also takes $1,000 of their cash and probably adds a third Pokémon to evolve). So odds are, they're just going to jump in and do a 2v2 battle with someone. Unfortunately, very few active members have two Pokémon which are a fair matchup for their Charmander and Dratini. One of two things is likely to happen: Their opponent uses much better Pokémon and easily wins (probably even if they're using the weakest Pokémon they have) or their opponent doesn't try to win and often makes the battle feel boring without the sense of challenge (if the new member catches on, some intentional loses are more obvious than others). The former is probably more likely, so they'll get $500 and a crushing defeat... And still only able to do the same thing again. It's not likely to be an exciting first experience in URPG in either case, unless they're lucky enough to find one of those two or three people who can put out an even team for them to battle.

    The current proposal is 5 free Rare Candies in the starter package and a free (EM?) IF they got a friend to join with them (which would drastically improve their early game experience, as they would have an opponent with about the same experience and level of Pokémon/EMs to compete with).
    Of course, as this is such a big change, it can be implemented in a few different ways. We could implement it at any point in its entirety. We could phase it in slowly, such as implementing the new system options and giving a certain period of time before the old system is removed entirely. Or perhaps it needs more work before being implemented and we need to take it back to the drawing board.

    EDIT: I also forgot to mention that there would potentially be a chance for all current members to claim a few Rare Candies when this first happened. Also, Siless suggested changing the evolution requirement numbers (preliminary numbers were 5 for single evolutions and 4-3 for double evolutions).

    EDIT2: Sou Cleife suggested allowing a 1v1 or two for new members starting out to make it easier to get the hang of it and less intimidating. HKim suggested naming the three most common rule types to allow new members to not need to memorize them from the beginning, current name suggestions are "Standard" for XY Public Open, "Competitive" for XY Private Preview, and "Secret" for XY Private Full (or "Standard" for XY Public Open, "Modern" for XY Private Preview, and "Legacy" for XY Private Full)).
    Last edited by Ash K.; 09-28-15 at 12:08 AM.
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  2. #2
    Cthulhu saves the world. Staff AlumniAce Member Lovecraft's Avatar
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    Proposed ways to earn experience:
    - Use the Pokémon in a Contest (any type)
    Totally not self serving, Ash.So, instead of doing 10 minute set of battles you need to do 30 minute things each. Yay!
    Use a Rare Candy
    I'm opposed to any way of evolving that will involve cash. And you might want to be reminded that rare candies were always found, and never bought on the games, which is apparently the main frame of reference for this.
    Use the Pokémon in an actual battle, 2v2+ (none of these pointless 2HKOs people do now)
    So ... people will still basically do 1v1 if you propose this, 1 FE mon and 1 paperweight nobody really gives a crap.
    Use the Pokémon in battle in the National Park (NOT fleeing)
    That takes weeks. Way to take out the time of evolution.
    Complete three encounters with the Pokémon in the National Park (not including the above)
    Also takes weeks.

    Seriously, why even need to have something? Why not just the Pokemon be able to auto-evolve?
    There, you just solved your headache without getting solutions that won't actually solve your problems.


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  3. #3

    The Wrath of Hoenn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecraft View Post
    Proposed ways to earn experience:
    - Use the Pokémon in a Contest (any type)
    Totally not self serving, Ash.So, instead of doing 10 minute set of battles you need to do 30 minute things each. Yay!
    It's an option. And it's the place a basic is on the most even playing field, as only moveset is relevant and most have a decent enough moveset for five turns.
    Use a Rare Candy
    I'm opposed to any way of evolving that will involve cash. And you might want to be reminded that rare candies were always found, and never bought on the games, which is apparently the main frame of reference for this.
    Okay, so you're opposed to things taking to long and you're opposed to paying to avoid it taking too long. What aren't you opposed to?
    Use the Pokémon in an actual battle, 2v2+ (none of these pointless 2HKOs people do now)
    So ... people will still basically do 1v1 if you propose this, 1 FE mon and 1 paperweight nobody really gives a crap.
    I've seen plenty of 2v2, 3v3, and even 5v5 basics that were taken very seriously. If people gave real battling a chance, maybe they'd stop trying to stick to the old ways of the most abusable system in the game.
    Use the Pokémon in battle in the National Park (NOT fleeing)
    That takes weeks. Way to take out the time of evolution.
    If you want fast, go buy Rare Candies. If you want to enjoy the journey of evolving your Pokémon, go enjoy it.
    Complete three encounters with the Pokémon in the National Park (not including the above)
    Also takes weeks.
    Also just an option that you could ignore if it's not for you.

    Seriously, why even need to have something? Why not just the Pokemon be able to auto-evolve?
    There, you just solved your headache without getting solutions that won't actually solve your problems.
    That was actually considered. While it solves some problems, it also seemed unlikely to satisfy a lot of people who may feel cheated out of the experience of it, especially some new members.

    Why is it so hard to imagine buying Rare Candies to evolve a Pokémon immediately, as you might buy a Link Cable to avoid TATBs? Also, if you want to see waiting, you should have been around in the era of 3-5 day wait for daycare moves during which you can't use the Pokémon.
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    "When you can have anything you want by uttering a few words, the goal matters not, only the journey to it." -Rhunön the Elf (Eldest: Inheritance Book 2)
    "You might think it’s to help you be a better battler. Really it’s just to make your battles less painful for the poor referee that has to face-palm every turn." - Monbrey
    1896/1926/1966

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    Now with Mega Evolution Staff AlumniURPG Staff swiftgallade46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecraft View Post
    Proposed ways to earn experience:
    - Use the Pokémon in a Contest (any type)
    Totally not self serving, Ash.So, instead of doing 10 minute set of battles you need to do 30 minute things each. Yay!
    Use a Rare Candy
    I'm opposed to any way of evolving that will involve cash. And you might want to be reminded that rare candies were always found, and never bought on the games, which is apparently the main frame of reference for this.
    Use the Pokémon in an actual battle, 2v2+ (none of these pointless 2HKOs people do now)
    So ... people will still basically do 1v1 if you propose this, 1 FE mon and 1 paperweight nobody really gives a crap.
    Use the Pokémon in battle in the National Park (NOT fleeing)
    That takes weeks. Way to take out the time of evolution.
    Complete three encounters with the Pokémon in the National Park (not including the above)
    Also takes weeks.

    Seriously, why even need to have something? Why not just the Pokemon be able to auto-evolve?
    There, you just solved your headache without getting solutions that won't actually solve your problems.
    All controversies aside, you need to chill out. This post is ridiculously sarcastic and unwarranted with also a personal attack on Ash (albeit crossed out). Yeah I'm guilty of these things sometimes, but when it's deserved. Ash did nothing to deserve that from you he simply proposed an idea and asked for feedback which is not something we want to discourage with sarcasm and rudeness. I didn't like it from other members, and I don't like it from you. I don't understand why it's so difficult for some people to disagree with an idea peacefully. /endrant

    Your logic is pretty flawed too, tbh. On one hand you say that we shouldn't do something as trivial as putting Rare Candies into the Mart because it's not that way in the games, yet you're willing to completely remove an entire mechanic that has been present since Red and Green? Also, if we're being technical you can buy Rare Candies with Battle Points and PokeMiles.

    Removing evolution sounds nice and pretty and blah, but so does adding every Pokemon to the Mart. It just basically gets rid of a core part of Pokemon. There is not a single game to date that doesn't include evolution in some form except some rare spin-offs, that have completely different mechanics to the main series games anyway. Evolution is a core part of Pokemon.
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    Cthulhu saves the world. Staff AlumniAce Member Lovecraft's Avatar
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    I'll apologize to the caustic tone my post had taken @Ash K.;, in the end my opinion doesn't really have any weight nor do I even do much of anything in URPG lately.

    That being said, your Link Cable example / anology is different, a Link Cable is a one-time buy thing that's 2k. Rare Candies are to be bought everytime you'd want an evolution.

    EDIT: Then why not just make the option open that those that don't really care about the journey or whatever don't have to do any? Basically pretend 1v1s with OHKOs happened and none of the involved get paid or something.


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    Now with Mega Evolution Staff AlumniURPG Staff swiftgallade46's Avatar
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    Your opinion has weight, it's just the way you choose to present it that affects whether or not anyone will be inclined to consider it. That being said, I appreciate the fact that you apologized. I do want you to feel that you can share your opinions, just please do it in a way that doesn't promote any kind of toxicity.

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  8. #7

    The Wrath of Hoenn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovecraft View Post
    I'll apologize to the caustic tone my post had taken @Ash K.;, in the end my opinion doesn't really have any weight nor do I even do much of anything in URPG lately.

    That being said, your Link Cable example / anology is different, a Link Cable is a one-time buy thing that's 2k. Rare Candies are to be bought everytime you'd want an evolution.

    EDIT: Then why not just make the option open that those that don't really care about the journey or whatever don't have to do any? Basically pretend 1v1s with OHKOs happened and none of the involved get paid or something.
    Your opinion has weight if you can express it constructively.

    We did make an option for people who don't care about the journey and just want it to be done with. It's called Rare Candies. And in fact, coupled with Elrond's suggestion on BMG (discount on a few moves purchased for basics) it could still easily be about free to evolve if you buy some EMs first. The majority of members who use Rare Candies probably want to EM the Pokémon pretty quickly anyways.

    I'm aware my analogy wasn't the best, but a lack of previous cases to draw from doesn't inherently make it bad. The point is that there are several options so that each person can use the one most suited for what they enjoy most. No requirement was actually something considered when this was first proposed, but it defeated the purpose of several of the others if you could just not do them.
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    "When you can have anything you want by uttering a few words, the goal matters not, only the journey to it." -Rhunön the Elf (Eldest: Inheritance Book 2)
    "You might think it’s to help you be a better battler. Really it’s just to make your battles less painful for the poor referee that has to face-palm every turn." - Monbrey
    1896/1926/1966

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    I think I suggested this in like, March. Good to see you've been entertaining the idea and that it's grown.

    Also good to see someone else (Lovecraft) showing the same sort of frustration I'm used to. I'm sure saying so won't win me any reputation with him, but I feel sympathy and camaraderie when I see a mod repeating me word for word.


    ...two mods repeating me word for word, if you also count the topic of this thread.



    By the way, did you guys have any thoughts about including De-Evolution Spray in the Mart?

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    Also, I feel like if you can just instantly evolve Pokemon that takes out an aspect that URPG has over Showdown. We're not just a battle simulator, we're [meant to be] an RPG. So it stands to reason there will be some RP aspect in nearly any section and that includes battling. In this case, evolution and buying EMs would be the (rather lame, but still present) equivalent of RP in the Battles section. If we say you can skip evolution, we might as well say you can skip buying EMs too and while we're at it you can just have all the Pokemon. I'm not being facetious here, I'm just pointing out that URPG really isn't the place where we just hit fast forward on these kinds of core mechanics just because you happen to be using the Battle section.
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  12. #10
    Head of the URPG URPG StaffAdministrator HKim's Avatar
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    Why not create a new kind of leveling system?

    Pokemon need a certain number of battles to evolve, so why don't we convert that to experience? By doing certain things, your Pokemon gains experience needed to evolve. We can make it so that Pokemon can gain experience through some fun things.


    Let's just go with the standard 7 experience required (obviously this number can change):

    - 1 XP for Naming your Pokemon (One Time Only)
    - 1 XP for doing a 1v1 (No Money Awarded)
    - 2 XP for doing a 2v2 or 3v3 or FFA
    - 3 XP for doing a 4v4 or higher
    - 2 XP for doing a Contest
    - 2 XP for encountering a Pokemon the Park
    - 6 XP for a National Park Battle
    - 4 XP for drawing your Pokemon
    - 4 XP for using your Pokemon in a story (must be considered a major character)
    - 7 XP for using a Rare Candy (must purchase)

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